The Slog TJE - Chapters 10-12 [Spoilers]

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profgrape

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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 04:28:50 pm »
So, we can rule out Kellhus as the voice then?


I'm not bold enough to go there.  Yet.  Kellhus seems willing to let the empire go to hell in a handbasket.  But it's also hard for me to see a motive for actively weakening the empire. 


H

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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 04:42:53 pm »
Kel might think he's helping Esme.  But just about everything he does seems designed to weaken her.   Killing the priestess is what ultimately tips the mob against Esme.  More than anything, the voice seems to be pushing Yatwer's agenda -- returning the empire to the disenfranchised.

re: Maitha suspecting Kel, the WLW scene with Inrilatas, Maitha and Kel confirms that he is genuinely in the dark about what's going on.

Good point.  In light of these last chapter, it isn't that Kel is trying to help Esmenet, but rather make it so she is more dependent on him.  The more she needs him, the closer he'll get to be to her, the more time she'll spend with him.  It's really that the voice is trying to make it Kel versus Kellhus for Esment.

Actually, I am kind of warming to the voice and Kel being Yatwer agents actually.  It kind of makes some sense.  When Psatma has the meeting of all the Yatwarian priestess, it is remarked how the matriarch is not there.  This no doubt displeased Yawter herself.  Then essentially treating with Kellhus?  It wouldn't surprise me that she would want her killed.

So, we can rule out Kellhus as the voice then?

I've never even considered it really.  It just doesn't fit at all to me.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 06:54:05 pm »
Actually, I am kind of warming to the voice and Kel being Yatwer agents actually.  It kind of makes some sense.  When Psatma has the meeting of all the Yatwarian priestess, it is remarked how the matriarch is not there.  This no doubt displeased Yawter herself.  Then essentially treating with Kellhus?  It wouldn't surprise me that she would want her killed.
The Matriarch is the head of the cult within the Thousand Temples. And I can't imagine that Yatwer gives a hoot about the cult's place within the the ecclesiastic framework of Inrithism.  If anything, Inrithism usurped the role of the Gods -- no way Yatwer's cool with that.

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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 07:07:40 pm »
Actually, I am kind of warming to the voice and Kel being Yatwer agents actually.  It kind of makes some sense.  When Psatma has the meeting of all the Yatwarian priestess, it is remarked how the matriarch is not there.  This no doubt displeased Yawter herself.  Then essentially treating with Kellhus?  It wouldn't surprise me that she would want her killed.
The Matriarch is the head of the cult within the Thousand Temples. And I can't imagine that Yatwer gives a hoot about the cult's place within the the ecclesiastic framework of Inrithism.  If anything, Inrithism usurped the role of the Gods -- no way Yatwer's cool with that.

Indeed, in actuality, the matriarch's death is probably a direct boon to Psatma, since any disciple of Yatwer will no longer be looking in two different directions.  Now she is the one voice of the goddess.

Thinking more about it, how the voice relates to Kel and how Kel relates all that he does to Esmenet, his mother.  Psatma constantly refers to Yatwer as her mother of course.  I have to say that more and more I am buying Kel as an agent of Yatwer.  It makes sense though, why put all the eggs in the one White-Luck Warrior basket anyway?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 07:37:02 pm »
An agent of Yatwer, just doesn't fit with what we know about her, though. Sorweel makes a natural enemy to Kellhus. Kel, the son of Yatwer's enemy? Yea, it sounds good and what better way to strike at Kellhus than using his progeny. But, then you're excluding the scene with Ajokli, the Trickster. And, just setting here thinking, it seems that this voice doesn't have any straight forward goals. It just seems to want to sow chaos. And that, IMHO, would align with Ajokli more than Yatwer. Those times it seems to help Yatwer's goals, I believe to be purely coincidental. And doesn't Kel's personality seem to be a perfect representation of a Trickster?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 07:45:01 pm »
And, every time we've seen the Gods use a human, that human has traits of that God. Cnaüir=Gilgoal, Sorweel=Yatwer, Akka=Anagke, Kelmommas=Ajokli. It seems to make sense. You are saying right now, "Well, what does Sorweel have to do with Yatwer? ". Well, I can't remember where (maybe the first scene with Psatama begging), but she says the the perfect wayto worship Yatwer is to not even realize you need her blessings. Or, something along this lines, I'll see if I can find it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2016, 07:58:19 pm »
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For adherents to the Cult of Yatwer, ignorance was the royal road to redemption.

This is it. This is why I believe Sorweel to be the perfect tool for Yatwer. His ignorance is laid bare in his chapters, its very obvious. And, she can lead him to the redemption of his father. I don't see any qualities in Kel that would make Yatwer wantto use him. Ajokli!.......well, he seems a match made in the Outside for Kel.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2016, 06:03:20 am »
Chapter 10

Quote
The dimensions of what had upended his life had escaped him—he had floundered in his ignorance. The Great Ordeal. The New Empire. The Second Apocalypse. These were little more than empty signs to him, sounds that had somehow wrought the death of his father and the fall of his city. But here at last, in the talk of other places and other times, was a glimmer—as though understanding were naught but the piling on of empty names.

This goes back to why I believe Sorweel was picked by Yatwer and what makes him worthy of her blessing. Ignorance. Hereis one example and there are many more.

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And in a rush, Sorweel realized what it was he had to do—at last! He fairly shouted aloud, it struck with such sudden obviousness. He needed to understand the Aspect-Emperor. It wasn’t his father’s weakness or pride or foolishness that had seen the Lonely City fall … It was his ignorance.

Another one, as if RSB is clearly tying Sorweel to Yatwer.

Chapter 12

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Kelmomas smiled at the thought of the skin-spies. Agents of the Apocalypse. He loved hearing the stories about their wicked depredations during the First Holy War. And he had gurgled with delight watching the black one being flayed—carefully, so that Mother wouldn’t see, of course. Somehow, he just knew he would be one of the few who could see past their faces, just as he could see past his father’s voice. If he found one, he decided, he would keep it secret, he would simply watch it, spy on it—he so dearly loved spying. What a game it would make! He wondered who was faster...

As I believe the gods pick those who are mirrors of themselves. This illustrates Kel's mischievousness and the games (tricks) he likes to play.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2016, 06:26:33 pm »
From the murder chapter I came away more convinced Kelmomas is by far the most naturally gifted of all of Kellhus' children. Hubris aside, he considers himself as such and he's not emotionally crippled like Theliopa or excessively impulsive like Inrilatas. Kayutas and Serwa seem competent enough at their important stations but without knowing more about them, it seems like that's all they are. Pulling off a slaughter in the Imperial Precincts was no small task and I'm beginning to wonder what he will become in 20 years like how we wonder what Moe had become in 30 years.

Regarding the killings, I think it was part frustration (not wanting to reveal himself to Kellhus) and part unfathomable whim, not necessarily to hurt, help, or isolate Esmenet. After grabbing a skewer and sitting on the throne, he notices the bird tweeting in the netting and wishes he had a stone instead of a skewer. It's here that he turns to his sense of smell, hunts down the Yatwerians,  and tweets at the matriarch before killing her. I think it's an interesting contrast to Kellhus, who sees people as children, whereas Kelmomas takes this one step further and sees them as animals.

I also found this interesting:

Quote
The Shriah of the Thousand Temples pursed his lips. “We need to proceed cautiously. Perhaps, Empress, we should consult the Aspect-Emperor.”
 Esmenet felt her look harden into a glare. Why? she found herself thinking. Why doesn’t Kellhus trust you?

Do you guys think there's anything left to the Maithanet plot line or have any further revelations died with him?

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 09:02:42 pm »
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Do you guys think there's anything left to the Maithanet plot line or have any further revelations died with him?

His story is one I was really dissapointed with. I always felt it would be bigger and reveal more about the Dunyain.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2016, 09:05:44 pm »
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Do you guys think there's anything left to the Maithanet plot line or have any further revelations died with him?

His story is one I was really dissapointed with. I always felt it would be bigger and reveal more about the Dunyain.

"You must tell my broth--!" was a fitting end to Maitha AKA the Tease of Teases. 

themerchant

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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2016, 05:26:18 am »
Cheap dye, revelation that he had brothers and a call to "tell my broth". I suspect he meant brothers.