The Slog TJE - Chapters 13 & 14 [Spoilers]

  • 16 Replies
  • 2648 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« on: March 24, 2016, 11:18:29 am »
Chapter 13:

Quote
"The Wizard does not say," the Successor-Prince continued when he glanced back. "But I fear that you and I shall know before this madness is done with."

I find it interesting, the Zeümi have copies of Akka's manuscript.  Presumably they believe it too.  I am thinking this is why we later see them helping Fanayal.

Quote
A mother wiping the face of her beloved son.

Look at you...

Somewhere on the plain, the priests sounded the Interval: a single note tolling pure and deep over landscapes of tented confusion. The sun was rising.

A play on words?  A son rising as well?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2016, 06:55:20 pm »
Chapter 14:

Quote
The mighty hero, Gin'gûrima, with arms like a man's thighs. And the Inchoroi King, Sil, armoured in corpses, flanked by his inhuman kinsmen, winged monstrosities with wicked limbs, pendulous phalli, and skulls grafted into skulls.

The Glossaary tells us that: "Gin’gûrima, the greatest hero among them, pointed to Nin’janjin and declared, “Hate has blinded him.""  So, it was him who first denounced Nin’janjin and later is killed by a Wracu.

Quote
"These are their memories," Achamian found himself saying aloud. "The Nonmen cut their past into the walls... as a way to make it as immortal as their bodies."

As is said later, the present holds little meaning to them, so the "sculpture" must seem to move to have meaning to them, perhaps?

Quote
"This... This! All the Last Born, sires and sons, gathered beneath the copper banners of Siol and her flint-hearted King. Silverteeth! Our Tyrant-Saviour..." He rolled his head back and laughed. Two lines of white marked the tears that scored his cheeks. "This is our..." The flash of fused teeth. "Our triumph."

I really wonder if he truely venerates Cu'jara Cinmoi, or if he weeps at the folly of him?  More later.

Quote
Soma's claim to have seen a beggar without arms or legs was met with general derision.

Too deep perhaps, but this made be think of the amputees in the Horn that we see in the Nau-Cayuti dream in the TGO excerpt.

Quote
"The greatest of the Nonman Kings," Achamian replied, reaching out two fingers to touch the cold stone face. It was strange, the heedless way that statues stared and stared, their eyes bound to the panoply of dead ages. "Cu'jara Cinmoi... the Lord of Siöl, who led the Nine Mansions against the Inchoroi."

Two things here, first, why would they made a statue of Cu'jara Cinmoi?  Why venerate him so much?  He had essentially cursed them all, killed all their women, and extinguished the whole race out of hubris and desire to live forever.  Unless of course, this room, or shrine, wasn't for his veneration, but rather so they could remember who had damned them such?

Second, I wonder what and where the other 5 Mansion were?  We know of Ishterebinth, Cil-Aujas, Virri and Siol.  I wonder is Kyudea was also one?  And perhaps the one that is near Sobel that Kellhus stumbles upon?

Quote
The present, the now that Men understood, the one firmly fixed at the fore of what was remembered, no longer existed for the Nonmen. They could find its semblance only in the blood and screams of loved ones.

Kind of explaining why painting doesn't work for them, possibly.

Quote
Seswatha frowned in good-natured dismissal.

I wonder, why is Seswatha dismissing him here?  Is it that he doesn't believe that Celmomas would plan ahead?  Or that he doesn't want him to have?

Quote
Achamian roared with laughter. "A wolf, my King! The boy's a wolf! You better hope he's never your enemy!"

As has been point out before, possibly an allusion to Nau being part of what raises the No-God.

Quote
I asked him, 'Why do Men fear the dark?' I could tell he thought the question wise, though I felt no wisdom in asking it. 'Because darkness,' he told me, 'is ignorance made visible.' 'And do Men despise ignorance?' I asked. 'No,' he said, 'they prize it above all things—all things!—but only so long as it remains invisible.'"

This goes right to the quote at the beginning of the chapter,

"The world is only as deep as we can see.
This is why fools think themselves profound.
This is why terror is the passion of revelation."

The dark is revealed ignorance.  Ignorance made plain.  Ignorance made essentially tangible.

Quote
Everyone leaned forward, breathless, struck by the sight of a scar or suture along one of the heart's fat-sheathed chambers. With his thumb Xonghis pressed open the upper lid...

A human eye stared at them.

I wonder what the significance of the symbol here is though?  A heart that can see?

Quote
"And now you're saying," she began hesitantly, "that I'm a kind of... proof?" She blinked in the stammering manner of people finding their way through unsought revelations. "Proof of my stepfather's... falsity?"

Is this really Mimara's role?  A refutation of Kellhus subjective "truth?" 

Thinking also, she shows an "objective" truth and has spent her whole life bartered and treated like an object.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2016, 11:55:16 pm »
From Chapter 14, Akka explaining why there are so few Nonmen:

Quote
"They're the False Men, remember?  Cursed of the Gods.  Our ancient fathers destroyed many a Mansion as great as this."  In his soul's eye he could see them, the Prophets of the Tusk, as stern and as spare as the words they would carve into ivory, leading hide-clad savages through the deep halls of glory, calling out in guttural tongues, murdering those who had been their slavers."

Are the "hide-clad savages" the Emwama?  They're the ones who were slaves to the Nonmen.  Or is this implying that the Nonmen also had some involvement with the Tribes prior to their receiving the Tusk?  Just wondering if the "False Men" were known to the Eannan Tribes.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2016, 12:21:24 am »
From Chapter 14, Akka explaining why there are so few Nonmen:

Quote
"They're the False Men, remember?  Cursed of the Gods.  Our ancient fathers destroyed many a Mansion as great as this."  In his soul's eye he could see them, the Prophets of the Tusk, as stern and as spare as the words they would carve into ivory, leading hide-clad savages through the deep halls of glory, calling out in guttural tongues, murdering those who had been their slavers."

Are the "hide-clad savages" the Emwama?  They're the ones who were slaves to the Nonmen.  Or is this implying that the Nonmen also had some involvement with the Tribes prior to their receiving the Tusk?  Just wondering if the "False Men" were known to the Eannan Tribes.

Well, the "False Men" clause was added to the Tusk before the Breaking of the Gates.  So, yes it was known to the Tribes for certain.  In fact, it was one of the main reason to go to Earwa.  I think Akka just lumps all Men together here, which is rather misleading really, I'm sure the slaves did really rise up, but only after the Tribes were there.

Keep in mind though, the Nonmen knew of the Earwan Men.  The Gate which were broke wasn't figurative, it's a real fortified pass that they made to keep them out.  Presumably because they didn't want to deal with them.  It was only with the goad of the edited Tusk that the Tribes seemed to really care.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2016, 06:17:30 am »
Chapter 13

Quote
An ambient eagerness bloomed through Sorweel’s limbs. The knowledge he needed was here—he could sense it. The knowledge that would cleave certainty out of mangled circumstances—that would see his honour redeemed.

Quote
For adherents to the Cult of Yatwer, ignorance was the royal road to redemption.

So there it is, word for word in the text. Frankly, I am a little astonished that it is so clearly spelled out for us like that. Huh, but Sorweel being a tool of Yatwer isn't a huge secret, lol. And,  at the end of the chapter he receives his blessing, to be hidden from Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2016, 03:17:57 pm »
Ignorance is Kellhus greatest tool as well, according to Uncle Holy.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2016, 03:36:18 pm »
Ignorance is Kellhus greatest tool as well, according to Uncle Holy.

Indeed. Men's ignorance of the darkness that comes before.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2016, 04:03:10 pm »
1. Chapter 14, during Akka's dream:

Quote
Seswatha shook his head. "Is it stocked with beer or with concubines?"
"Seeds," Celmomas replied, his eyes smiling over the rim of his cup.  The golden wolf's head braided into the centre of his beard seemed to glower from beneath his wrist.

Celmomas' mysterious "seeds" comment has led to a lot of speculation, ranging from the straightforward, that it was a refuge for his line to continue in case things went south, to the Nerdanelian, that his is literally referring to his seed and that all of the Dunyain are sons of Celmomas.

One of the many things we hope is cleared up in TGO.

2. Chapter 14, Cleric's sermon:

Quote
"The dark?" Galian said, and his voice warm and human -- and as such, so very frail. "Holy?"
The Nonmen lifted his flawless white face to the light, smiled at the Nansur scalper's questioning gaze.
"Of course...  Think on it, my mortal friend.  The dark is oblivion made manifest.  And oblivion encircles us always.  It is the ocean, and we are naught but silvery bubbles.  It leans all about us.  You see it every time you glimpse the horizon -- though you know it not..."

I never noticed this until now.  But what he's describing sounds like "dark matter".  Which in turn makes me think about how the Outside often sounds a lot like space.

I've a couple of additional thoughts on this that I'll save for when we dig into WLW.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 04:35:08 pm by profgrape »

geoffrobro

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2016, 11:25:53 pm »
at the end of chapter 13 in the middle of Porsparians "spit spell" Sorweel recalls a moment when he burn his slave by accident with a "tear" (im guessing he means a chorae).
Quote
But something,some religious witness perhaps, held him back. He remembered the incident with the tear, When Porsparian had burned his palm, and a hollowing anxiousness seized him. He felt lika a thing of paper, creased and rolled and folded into the shape of a man. Any gust, it seemed, could make a kite of him, toss him to the arches of heaven. What new madness was this?


So Porsparian is some type of sorcerer maybe with a mark and is the shell of a man pretty much. 

Out there thought, Kellhus knows whats happening to Sorweel and allowing the "Yatwer success building process" happen to Sorweel so he can.... I have no idea.   
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2016, 12:44:45 am »
Quote
I never noticed this until now.  But what he's describing sounds like "dark matter".  Which in turn makes me think about how the Outside often sounds a lot like space.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think of the Outside as space? I ask because I've thought that before, but the Inchoroi coning from another world kinda ruined it for me.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4926
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2016, 01:28:29 am »
Even worse, there's a ZTS post where Bakker disguinshes the Void (what the Inchoroi flew threw) and the Outside (where the Gods dwell).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

geoffrobro

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2016, 12:50:50 pm »
In chapter 14 while taking their first rest in Cil-Aujus, Akka has a dream that Sauglish is destroyed beneath him. It's towers were squat! He dreams of seeing gnostic magic across the sky. Then jump to a dragons POV in flight looking at the whirlwind feeling the rumble of the No-god then jumps to a POV that claims to be unseen, a insubstantial witness, alone. Looking for seswatha! Then it ends.

AKKA DREAM HE'S THE NO-GOD AT THE DESTRUCTION OF SAUGLISH!


Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 12:53:54 pm by geoffrobro »
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

Alia

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Of The Knife
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2016, 01:00:49 pm »
at the end of chapter 13 in the middle of Porsparians "spit spell" Sorweel recalls a moment when he burn his slave by accident with a "tear" (im guessing he means a chorae).
Quote
But something,some religious witness perhaps, held him back. He remembered the incident with the tear, When Porsparian had burned his palm, and a hollowing anxiousness seized him. He felt lika a thing of paper, creased and rolled and folded into the shape of a man. Any gust, it seemed, could make a kite of him, toss him to the arches of heaven. What new madness was this?


So Porsparian is some type of sorcerer maybe with a mark and is the shell of a man pretty much. 

No, it was the other way round. Porsparian's tear (quite literal, not chorae) burned Sorweel in Chapter 7:

Quote
"Yatwer," he [Porsparian] whispered, his eyes brimming with tears. Drawing Sorweel's palm between them, he leaned forward and kissed the soft-skinned basin.
Fire climbed the young King's skin. He tried to yank his hand back, but the old man held him with the strength of newly cast stocks. He rolled his age-creased face above Sorweel's palm, as if drowsing to some unheard melody. A single tear tapped the spot where his lips had touched...
It seemed to burn and cut all at once, like something molten falling through snow.
[...]
For watch after watch, Sorweel lay rigid in his cot, holding his own hand, pressing the impossible blister on his palm.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4926
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2016, 03:44:36 pm »
For posterity:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
1) The Inchoroi come from the Void, not from the Outside - for some reason it never dawned on me that people would think otherwise, though it seems clear enough to me now.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Bolivar

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2016, 11:29:19 pm »


Chapter 14:

Quote
The mighty hero, Gin'gûrima, with arms like a man's thighs. And the Inchoroi King, Sil, armoured in corpses, flanked by his inhuman kinsmen, winged monstrosities with wicked limbs, pendulous phalli, and skulls grafted into skulls.

I had hoped all the Inchoroi would be different with unique grafts but this seems to put that to bed.