The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]

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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2016, 11:35:28 am »
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.

But that's my point, doesn't the gods need humanity? So doesn't his interest lie with protecting humanity or who will he even be a God to?

Well, I don't think The Absolute is god-hood in the same way that Yatwer is a god, or any of the 100.  I think what Kellhus is after is domination of both the Outside and Inside.  Nothing left unconditioned by him, he would be The Primer Mover, the sole point from which all actions flow.

Is this good?  I don't really know.  I don't think it's as bad as some of the alternatives, but I still don't see Kellhus as a savior of Mankind.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2016, 02:29:43 pm »
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.

But that's my point, doesn't the gods need humanity? So doesn't his interest lie with protecting humanity or who will he even be a God to?

Well, I don't think The Absolute is god-hood in the same way that Yatwer is a god, or any of the 100.  I think what Kellhus is after is domination of both the Outside and Inside.  Nothing left unconditioned by him, he would be The Primer Mover, the sole point from which all actions flow.

Is this good?  I don't really know.  I don't think it's as bad as some of the alternatives, but I still don't see Kellhus as a savior of Mankind.

OK, let me present it this way. If Kellhus and the Great Ordeal succeed at stopping the Consult and the No-God, will the denizen  of Earwa think of him as a Savior? I guess there is another option also. He could be aiming to defeat the Consult and shut the Outside, hence creating a disenchanted world.

Still, I think you guys are overlooking evidence presented to us in PoN. RSB went through pains to show us that he was human. He did care about certain people, did experience emotions not in line with a Dunyain. And, I believe its important and can't be ignored. There is a reason why we haven't had a POV of him. I don't read TAE and think of Kellhus as a Savior. No, I tend to think along your same train of thought. But, there are always twists, and I don't think Bakker would've made a point to show those things in PoN if they wasn't a key piece to this puzzle.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2016, 03:07:01 pm »
Well, in Prince of Nothing we are subject to Kellhus' manipulation, we are a direct party to it and even with it being from his own POV sometimes we still fall for it.  We see Kellhus as something of a sympathetic figure, a man against the world, an actual savior since he did save the Holy War.  In Aspect Emperor, he is aloof and so we see his manipulation much more indirectly which makes it both less overt and seemingly less sinister.  Of course, though, without knowing where he is going with all of it means we really don't know if it's less or more.

If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?  Less likely to be an actual savior?  I'm not buying any madness really.  I think it's all cold and calculated on Kellhus' part.  He does show vestigial emotions from time to time, even Moe remarks that this is the case for Dunyain, it's not something out of the ordinary.

Unfortunately, none of this brings me closer to what Kellhus' actual goal is.  I think too much in-the-box.  No doubt the answer is off-the-wall, but that's not how my brain works.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2016, 07:10:26 pm »
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If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2016, 07:29:59 pm »
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If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 

Yeah, that's plausible.  I'm just not buying Kellhus having "gone soft."  He certainly isn't soft in letting Esmenet toil away trying to hold together the scraps of Empire, or Kel killing Sammy, or Maith killing Inrilatus, or in Maith being killed.  While maybe he didn't see all that, no way he saw none of that (mostly the abandoning Esmenet).  There is no way that he could have imagined that leaving Fanayal alive wouldn't cause issues and if he was so soft-hearted to Esmenet, why let that happen to her?  It just doesn't add up to me.

No, I think the "madness" is that on the Circumfix he saw what he believes is the plan to dominate not just Earwa, but the Outside too.  To what end, I don't know.  Possibly the same end as the Consult, just minus quite so much murder (or maybe not).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2016, 08:41:08 pm »
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If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 

Yeah, that's plausible.  I'm just not buying Kellhus having "gone soft."  He certainly isn't soft in letting Esmenet toil away trying to hold together the scraps of Empire, or Kel killing Sammy, or Maith killing Inrilatus, or in Maith being killed.  While maybe he didn't see all that, no way he saw none of that (mostly the abandoning Esmenet).  There is no way that he could have imagined that leaving Fanayal alive wouldn't cause issues and if he was so soft-hearted to Esmenet, why let that happen to her?  It just doesn't add up to me.

No, I think the "madness" is that on the Circumfix he saw what he believes is the plan to dominate not just Earwa, but the Outside too.  To what end, I don't know.  Possibly the same end as the Consult, just minus quite so much murder (or maybe not).

I disagree. I think he does have some human emotion. He couldn't possibly have foreseen Maithanet being killed, because that was an act of a god. And I think he did know the empire would fall apart, just as he knew there was nothing he could do to stop it. He is trying for the greater good of saving mankind vs saving his family. So all of the deaths you mention were unavoidable.
I think Kellhus starts to believe in his own divinity while on the circumfix, which is also an indicator that he may have broken.

Isn't the madness Moe speaks of the fact that Kellhus thinks he hears the No-god?
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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2016, 08:50:40 pm »
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Kellhus, and his goals might be tad bit different than what one would expect from a Dunyain. Does he still deceive? Yes. Is everything Mission, and he'll do whatever needs doing to achieve his goals? Yes. Is he ruthless in achieving those goals? Of course.

I don't believe that Kellhus is soft, as I said before. I disagree that the "madness" from the Circumfix was him seeing further in the TT. No, I think it was him seeing Serwe's lifeless body and realizing he did indeed care for her. Him realizing he has genuine feelings for Esme. I just think that those feeling were made evident for a reason, and play into his decisions. Is he Dunyain? Yes. Is he all about his mission, whatever that may be? Yep. But, I have a feeling his feelings have altered the TT. I very well could be reading into it all wrong, there's no doubt about it.

On another note, when Akka has the dream in Cil-Aujus where he asks where Seswatha is, makes me think that maybe Kellhus is indeed sending those dreams. It goes against everything I believe about Seswatha, but it really stuck out.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2016, 09:18:10 pm »
I finished last night, what a finale. Especially the explanation of why Cil-Aujas became a topos, which I had forgotten. I'm starting to question the Nonman Tutelage because they really could not give a fuck less about humans. And you have to wonder what the significance of their "love":

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“They-they called-called us-us false-false.”
  “They are children who can never grow,”Cleric replies. “They could do no different.”
  “I-I loved-loved them-them. I-I loved-loved them-them so-so much-much.”
  “So did we all, at one time.”

Is there supposed to be a shift after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, the way they viewed their Emwama slaves and their Earwan pupils? Just seems unlikely.

I don't want to go too deep on my thoughts on Kellhus but while I do think he only serves his own interests, there is room for ambiguity (obviously, as with everything in this series). He had a nervous breakdown on the circumfix when confronted with Serwe's death, he speaks to the World/the God while heading to Kyudea, and he does consider himself "more" than Dunyain, as the omniscient narrator names him The Warrior Prophet after stabbing Moenghus. At the same time, he admits in his internal monologs he is still deceiving everyone post-circumfix, and he also tells the Ground men have no heart for the truth. I also think the significance of Achamian saying Kellhus speaks of an Apocalypse at the end suggests Kellhus is the second apocalypse, not just the harbinger or a principal. Whether that's the horrific designs of the Consult or something else I'm not committed either way yet. In fact, I wouldn't mind if at the end of the series we're still arguing over what actually happened just like the circumfix. But I'm always going to fall back to this infamous interview gem when interpreting his actions:

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The original plan was to have Kellhus progressively disappear as a viewpoint character as he gained power throughout The Prince of Nothing. The problem, it turned out, was that all my draft readers began to believe him, rather than continually conditioning everything he said and did with what they had learned from their initial glimpses into his manipulative psyche. So I was forced to go back and to add several viewpoint sections to remind them what Kellhus was up to.

http://blogcritics.org/interview-r-scott-bakker-author-of/

geoffrobro

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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2016, 09:18:57 pm »
Quote


On another note, when Akka has the dream in Cil-Aujus where he asks where Seswatha is, makes me think that maybe Kellhus is indeed sending those dreams. It goes against everything I believe about Seswatha, but it really stuck out.
In chapter 14 while taking their first rest in Cil-Aujus, Akka has a dream that Sauglish is destroyed beneath him. It's towers were squat! He dreams of seeing gnostic magic across the sky. Then jump to a dragons POV in flight looking at the whirlwind feeling the rumble of the No-god then jumps to a POV that claims to be unseen, a insubstantial witness, alone. Looking for seswatha! Then it ends.

AKKA DREAM HE'S THE NO-GOD AT THE DESTRUCTION OF SAUGLISH!


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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 10:51:40 pm »
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2016, 10:23:27 am »
I think he is mad as in he is also inside the lie. Don't "believe your own hype" is how it's said in the prize fighting game.

Kellhus believes his own hype and is in for a rude awakening.

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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2016, 11:19:26 am »
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?

This is the dream:

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The Library of Sauglish burned beneath him in his Dream, its towers squat and monumental within garlands of flame. Dragons banked about mighty plumes of smoke. The glitter of sorcery sparked across the heights—the blinding calligraphy of the Gnosis.

Its wings threshing the air, Skafra bared corroded teeth, shrieked out to the horizon, to the whirlwind roping black across the distant plains. A rumble deeper than a final heartbeat.

And Achamian hung unseen, an insubstantial witness... Alone.

Where? Where was Seswatha?

I always thought that with Seswatha "missing" in this dream that Akka was Seswatha.  The Whirlwind seems to still be just something on the horizon here...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Somnambulist

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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2016, 12:11:04 pm »
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?

This is the dream:

Quote
The Library of Sauglish burned beneath him in his Dream, its towers squat and monumental within garlands of flame. Dragons banked about mighty plumes of smoke. The glitter of sorcery sparked across the heights—the blinding calligraphy of the Gnosis.

Its wings threshing the air, Skafra bared corroded teeth, shrieked out to the horizon, to the whirlwind roping black across the distant plains. A rumble deeper than a final heartbeat.

And Achamian hung unseen, an insubstantial witness... Alone.

Where? Where was Seswatha?

I always thought that with Seswatha "missing" in this dream that Akka was Seswatha.  The Whirlwind seems to still be just something on the horizon here...

That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2016, 01:11:20 pm »
That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.

I wonder if it is as simple as a foreshadowing of what will be at Sauglish when Akka gets there?  No Seswatha, just a dragon?

I doubt it's that though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2016, 01:29:49 pm »
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,