The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]

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H

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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2016, 01:51:27 pm »
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.

Well, when you are in some one else's dream, you are an unsubstantial observer too though, right?

I don't even know what I am implying here though.  Akka in another person's dream?  But who?  And it still doesn't explain why no Seswatha.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2016, 02:28:45 pm »
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.

Well, when you are in some one else's dream, you are an unsubstantial observer too though, right?

I don't even know what I am implying here though.  Akka in another person's dream?  But who?  And it still doesn't explain why no Seswatha.

Lol. These books have a habit of making us feel confused. It makes me think that he is seeing through Kellhus's perspective. At least, that's what came to mind.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 02:56:11 pm »
Lol. These books have a habit of making us feel confused. It makes me think that he is seeing through Kellhus's perspective. At least, that's what came to mind.

But Kellhus doesn't have the dreams, as far as we know, right?  I still don't get why Kellhus would send Akka the dreams though, so I'm definitely biased to it not having to do with him...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2016, 03:07:08 pm »
That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.

I wonder if it is as simple as a foreshadowing of what will be at Sauglish when Akka gets there?  No Seswatha, just a dragon?

I doubt it's that though.

I think its from Nau-Cayűti's POV. If Nau-Cayűti is the No-God then this makes sense, looking for Ses because he betrayed him.
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2016, 03:08:08 pm »
Well its like I said in my previous post. Hedidnt need to grasp the heart to learn the gnosis. Could he have found a way to experience the dreams also? Kellhus seems to find ways around these things.

ETA: H, I'm not sold on it either. Just spitballing really.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2016, 03:12:17 pm »
That always seemed strange to me, though. 
I think its from Nau-Cayűti's POV. If Nau-Cayűti is the No-God then this makes sense, looking for Ses because he betrayed him.

Interesting. That could certainly be a possibility. Never would've thought of that.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

geoffrobro

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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2016, 03:14:50 pm »
Something else I think ive noticed is that some of Akka's dreams have meticulous details specially the ones dealing with the location and map to Ishual. Those dream maybe the ones sent from Kellhus or just Bakker setting more or a scene to the dreams.
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

themerchant

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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2016, 03:51:07 pm »
loads of folk are heeding "a voice from nowhere"

Kellhus has been taking instruction from an unknown voice since the end of TWP. Little Kel has a voice talking to him. The whole Mandate and Sawyal Compact spend each night getting history lessons , Akka get's different dreams it seems but still their providence is unknown.

The mother superior of Yatwer is talking to someone getting red eyes. Fanyal has "been chosen" etc.

In fact the only human "power" in the series we don't know about getting instruction from elsewhere is Meppa, he is in fact sealed from "heeding his own voice" as his memories are away. So he seems death to all these "outside info dumps".




MSJ

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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2016, 04:21:49 pm »
Something else I think ive noticed is that some of Akka's dreams have meticulous details specially the ones dealing with the location and map to Ishual. Those dream maybe the ones sent from Kellhus or just Bakker setting more or a scene to the dreams.

Well, I have always been of the opinion that the meticulous detail is the result of Akka experiencing the mundane details of Seswatha's life. That's why its always been hard for me to think Kellhus has anything to do with the dreams.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2016, 12:44:55 pm »
So, does anyone else think that something was special about Mimara's chorae? When she seen it as truly a Tear of God, she wanted to see the Captains to see if his was the same. I did too. But, I believe its more todo with Mimara herself. Even Akka said, "She is what happened.", in Cil-Aujus. Does anyone have any ideas about what exactly makes Mimara so special, other than the JE. I feel that she is probably the most important character left, sans Kellhus.

ETA: H, another thing that makes me believe Kellhus cares about the future of humanity, is his obsession with having children.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 12:48:17 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2016, 12:56:06 pm »
ETA: H, another thing that makes me believe Kellhus cares about the future of humanity, is his obsession with having children.

Yeah, he seemed to be intent on it.  Yet, now that the kids are there, he shows no real attachment that we can discern.  Especially not for Intrilatas, or even the twins.

I mean, I buy Kellhus has having vestigial passions and feelings.  I don't buy that he is blinded or even really guided by them though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2016, 02:27:36 pm »
Well all the children play a major part do they not?

Little Kel gets Esme to be paranoid about Uncle Holy, Theli suggests (i believe when esme is having her "morning sun" in WLW) Inri reads his face. Inri attempts to kill him, which causes Maithanet to take over.



profgrape

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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2016, 11:25:38 pm »
So, does anyone else think that something was special about Mimara's chorae? When she seen it as truly a Tear of God, she wanted to see the Captains to see if his was the same. I did too. But, I believe its more todo with Mimara herself. Even Akka said, "She is what happened.", in Cil-Aujus. Does anyone have any ideas about what exactly makes Mimara so special, other than the JE. I feel that she is probably the most important character left, sans Kellhus.

I'm not sure it was special, per-se.  More that seeing it with the Judging Eye transformed it into something else -- another example of  "a lie made truth."  Riffing along a common theme, Men believe that Chorae are "Tears of God".  And thus it somehow became that thing when she looked at it?

themerchant

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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2016, 01:09:40 pm »
All Chorae have different "flavours". Akka thinks on it as he is threatened by them.

That makes me think something the same but different goes into making each one? A soul perhaps, maybe that's why outlawed. An unborn soul maybe. The timeline could support it as there is some time between the loss at pir pahal and the womb plague.