The Slog WLW - Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

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H

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« on: April 04, 2016, 12:24:59 pm »
Requests were in to continue the Slog, so here we go, Chapter 1:

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Seswatha paused on the stair, warred with his stomach. He looked down and for some reason felt no surprise, no alarm, to see that the golden map-case had become an infant's inert form. Blue and grey. Mottled with black bruising, as if it had perished while lying on its face. Slicked with the sweat of the dead.

This dream, this changed dream.  It features the map case as a baby, the contents of the coffers is the Whirlwind, so what is this telling us?  Is it in reverse, sort of?  A stillborn baby, a reference to the No-God?  This time though, it's Seswatha in the dream that is saying, "this isn't what happens."  Is that a clue that Seswatha isn't behind the changes in the Dreams?

I still am weary of Kellhus being behind these Dreams.  Could it be another agent though?  Who else would know such details of Seswatha's life though?

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According to her, the Wight-in-the-Mountain had been driven away by her Chorae and that was that. When he reminded her that the Captain also carried a Chorae, one that apparently made no difference, she would simply shrug as if to say, "Well, I'm not the Captain, am I?"

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He knew that some agencies could be summoned shorn of the Outside, plucked whole as it were, while others bore their realities with them, swamping the World with porous madness. The shade of Gin'yursis, Achamian knew, had been one of the latter.
Chorae only negated violations of the Real; they returned the world to its fundamental frame. But Gin'yursis had come as figure and frame—a symbol wedded to the very Hell that gave it meaning...
Mimara's Chorae should have been useless.

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Something was open that should not have been open. She closed it...
Somehow.
...
A tear of the God, blazing in her palm. The God of Gods!

So, it's really not Mimara's Chorae that is special, it's her.  It's the Judging Eye.  It seems that the Judging Eye gives Mimara some kind of access to the Frame and where a Chorae would normally be useless, it instead becomes hyper-useful.  Could it be that Mimara somehow makes a Chorae reverse?

I don't even know what that even really means, but she insists upon it's more divine nature, where we know that a Chorae is not divine.  It was made by Aporetic sorcerers, not any god.  But with the Frame reversed, the Chorae becomes what it's believed to be, a tear of God, in other words, divine dispensation.  It is now actually holy, because the Frame, Mimara's Frame, says it is.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 04:28:05 pm »
So, it's really not Mimara's Chorae that is special, it's her.  It's the Judging Eye.  It seems that the Judging Eye gives Mimara some kind of access to the Frame and where a Chorae would normally be useless, it instead becomes hyper-useful.  Could it be that Mimara somehow makes a Chorae reverse?

I don't even know what that even really means, but she insists upon it's more divine nature, where we know that a Chorae is not divine.  It was made by Aporetic sorcerers, not any god.  But with the Frame reversed, the Chorae becomes what it's believed to be, a tear of God, in other words, divine dispensation.  It is now actually holy, because the Frame, Mimara's Frame, says it is.

I think you're on the right track, H, when you write "becomes what it's believed to be".  Mimara  has the ability to impose her own frame on things, doing what "God" does, turning lies into truth.

Even Cleric's sermon includes a nod to the lie made truth:

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"Ever are Men stranded on the surface of things.  And ever do they confuse what they see with the sum of what matters.  Ever do they forget the rank insignificance of the visible.  And when they do honour the beyond -- the beneath -- they render it according to what is familiar... They disfigure it for comfort's sake."

H

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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 04:53:46 pm »
So, it's really not Mimara's Chorae that is special, it's her.  It's the Judging Eye.  It seems that the Judging Eye gives Mimara some kind of access to the Frame and where a Chorae would normally be useless, it instead becomes hyper-useful.  Could it be that Mimara somehow makes a Chorae reverse?

I don't even know what that even really means, but she insists upon it's more divine nature, where we know that a Chorae is not divine.  It was made by Aporetic sorcerers, not any god.  But with the Frame reversed, the Chorae becomes what it's believed to be, a tear of God, in other words, divine dispensation.  It is now actually holy, because the Frame, Mimara's Frame, says it is.

I think you're on the right track, H, when you write "becomes what it's believed to be".  Mimara  has the ability to impose her own frame on things, doing what "God" does, turning lies into truth.

Even Cleric's sermon includes a nod to the lie made truth:

Quote
"Ever are Men stranded on the surface of things.  And ever do they confuse what they see with the sum of what matters.  Ever do they forget the rank insignificance of the visible.  And when they do honour the beyond -- the beneath -- they render it according to what is familiar... They disfigure it for comfort's sake."

It could also be, thinking about it now, that Mimara holding a Chorae with the Judging Eye open is a Frame enforcer, in the same way that a Chorae is always an enforcer of the Real (Frame).  So, where a Chorae would normally only enforce on the meaning within the Frame of the Real, Mimara can enforce the Frame itself.  So, bringing the Frame does not protect a topoi, or a wright, or whatever it is, like it normally would from the undoing of meaning that the Chorae does, because Mimara's Judging Eye enforces the Real, then the Chorae does what it does.

If that makes any sense, I am saying the the Judging Eye is the arbiter of Frame.  It forces the Frame back to the Real, so the Chorae will always do what it does (because it always undoes divergent means to the Real).  What she says "something was open and I closed it" that was the disjunction of the two Frames.  She closed the gap and the Chorae did the rest.

Maybe...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 05:25:53 pm »
This all begs the question, too, of whether the "fundamental frame" is, well, fundamental.  Kellhus is looking to rewrite it, at least -- maybe Mimara is his how he plans to do it?

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 05:51:47 pm »
This all begs the question, too, of whether the "fundamental frame" is, well, fundamental.  Kellhus is looking to rewrite it, at least -- maybe Mimara is his how he plans to do it?

Or maybe Mimara is what stops him from doing it?

I really an unsure how I feel about Kellhus knowing about Mimara's Judging Eye.  On the one hand, it seems so likely he knows all about it and plans to use it (her) in his plan.  On the other, it seems so far out there, I can't see how he knows all about it...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 09:08:25 pm »
Or maybe Mimara is what stops him from doing it?

Ok, I'll bite.   Mimara as the Gods' weapon against Kellhus fits the overall theme of TAA:

If Ajokli is Kelmomas' "voice", it could be argued Ajokli was responsible to pointing Mimara toward Akka.   Who in turn has mysterious dreams (sent by Anagke?) that cause him to escort her more than halfway around the world and perhaps, a reunion with Kellhus.

Whew...

locke

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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2016, 04:43:36 am »
Or maybe Mimara is what stops him from doing it?

Ok, I'll bite.   Mimara as the Gods' weapon against Kellhus fits the overall theme of TAA:

If Ajokli is Kelmomas' "voice", it could be argued Ajokli was responsible to pointing Mimara toward Akka.   Who in turn has mysterious dreams (sent by Anagke?) that cause him to escort her more than halfway around the world and perhaps, a reunion with Kellhus.

Whew...
Then the third trilogy is the god-empress trilogy hmm?

profgrape

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2016, 01:22:10 pm »
Or No-Goddess?  Fits Bakker's claims about TSA being a feminist work.

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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2016, 01:38:46 pm »
I think Mimara must be very important, otherwise, why bother showing us the Judging Eye?  Just as another tool for Kellhus to manipulate?  I actually really doubt Kellhus fathoms the whole of what it really is, let alone what it can do.

Perhaps Mimara is what "sets it all right" in the end, but what that means I have no idea.  Perhaps though the banishing of the wright is foreshadowing though, she'll banish Kellhus in the end?  And what about the baby she carries?  That has to be pretty important.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

locke

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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2016, 09:48:45 pm »
I think Mimara must be very important, otherwise, why bother showing us the Judging Eye?  Just as another tool for Kellhus to manipulate?  I actually really doubt Kellhus fathoms the whole of what it really is, let alone what it can do.

Perhaps Mimara is what "sets it all right" in the end, but what that means I have no idea.  Perhaps though the banishing of the wright is foreshadowing though, she'll banish Kellhus in the end?  And what about the baby she carries?  That has to be pretty important.
The" sets it right "probably gets at the metaphysical connection between chorae (neither being nor nonbeing, outside) and topos (aka place).

In other words the chorae is the interval--the deconstruction--between the subjective law (mimara) and the objective justice (god frame).

mimara, via the chorae deconstructed the law to assert justice.

Fucking Derrida.

You're right it is the no-goddess. Mimara is diff'erance, the Goddess of negative theology.

Bolivar

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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 02:22:52 pm »
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One Imperial Mathematician, the notorious Mepmerat of Shigek, claimed that the Scalpoi had at last encountered a population of Sranc that could reproduce as fast as they could slaughter—that the Bounty had become futile, in effect. He would be imprisoned for his impious accuracy.

Not to beat a dead horse but this further hints that Kellhus is engineering disaster: emptying the Imperial coffers in the name of futility, and imprisoning anyone seditious enough to tell the truth.

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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 02:35:55 pm »
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One Imperial Mathematician, the notorious Mepmerat of Shigek, claimed that the Scalpoi had at last encountered a population of Sranc that could reproduce as fast as they could slaughter—that the Bounty had become futile, in effect. He would be imprisoned for his impious accuracy.

Not to beat a dead horse but this further hints that Kellhus is engineering disaster: emptying the Imperial coffers in the name of futility, and imprisoning anyone seditious enough to tell the truth.

Good point.  That part did strike me as being pertinent, but I am so convinced that Kellhus the the complete opposite of a savior that "proof" fails to really stand out to me anymore.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2016, 02:42:37 pm »
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One Imperial Mathematician, the notorious Mepmerat of Shigek, claimed that the Scalpoi had at last encountered a population of Sranc that could reproduce as fast as they could slaughter—that the Bounty had become futile, in effect. He would be imprisoned for his impious accuracy.

Not to beat a dead horse but this further hints that Kellhus is engineering disaster: emptying the Imperial coffers in the name of futility, and imprisoning anyone seditious enough to tell the truth.

Good point.  That part did strike me as being pertinent, but I am so convinced that Kellhus the the complete opposite of a savior that "proof" fails to really stand out to me anymore.
Can't say I blame you

Aural

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2016, 11:12:47 am »
Is it a mistake when Akka thinks that the name Ishuäl was uttered to him by a mad barbarian so many years ago? I thought he only heard the name from his dreams.

profgrape

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 03:53:33 pm »
Good find!  And yes, definitely a mistake, I think.

In TJE, Akka puts a lot of weight on having discovered "a name" in his evolving Dreams. It's pretty clear from the text that Cnaiur only told him that Kellhus wasn't from Atrithau and that the name Ishual came later.