The Slog WLW - Chapter 2 [Spoilers]

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« on: April 05, 2016, 12:02:08 pm »
Chapter 2:

Quote
"Does it trouble you that I can watch men from their fires?" Kellhus asked.
"If anything, it heartens me..." he replied. "I marched with you in the First Holy War, remember? I know full well the capricious humour of armies stranded far from home."

So, Kellhus watches  them all from the fires, which means in the previous chapter Sorweel was indeed being watched as he spoke to Zsoronga.  Indeed, it seems like proof-positive that Yatwer does indeed hide Sorweel.  But she doesn't hide the rest of them.  So, why does Kellhus allow them to be so seditious?  Is it because it is so obvious?  Why fear them when they have no real power?

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"The Men of the Ordeal do not march to save the World, Proyas—at least not first and foremost. They march to save their wives and their children. Their tribes and their nations. If they learn that the world, their world, slips into ruin behind them, that their wives and daughters may perish for want of their shields, their swords, the Host of Hosts would melt about the edges, then collapse."

The whole process, allowing (because indeed, he is allowing it to happen) the Empire to crumble, is still a major curiosity.  Indeed, I think the Empire was just a means to the Great Ordeal.  The Great Ordeal is a means to his assumption of god-hood?  At which point, Empire is useless, he will be a living god.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 01:43:05 pm »
Yeah, since reading the WLW the first time I have thought he was willing to concede the empire to chaos after he marched on Golgotterath. I agree that the empire is just a means to the GO. I don't yet know why he is trying to save humanity. I feel like the last we clearly saw from his POV in TTT, was that he wanted to save humanity. He killed Moe because he believed Moe would eventually side with the Consult and thus destroy humanity. Since we haven't seen anything to in the AE to contradict his goal of saving mankind, it's hard to assume he is doing anything otherwise. I think the real surprise will be in how he fails and what implications that failure has.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

profgrape

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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 02:28:04 pm »
An interesting tidbit from the same scene:

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"My Lord and Salvation?" [Proyas] called to the empty air.  The wheeze and pop of the hearth's fire filled the silence.  Its light mottled the hanging walls with wavering patterns of light and dark.  It almost seemed he could glimpse images in the dancing blur.  Cities burning.  Faces.

Kellhus claims to have glimpses of the future.  Is this proof?  And if so, what if the No-God actually is the source of these visions, that he's continued to speak to Kellhus since he was on the circumfix?

Bolivar

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 03:10:27 am »
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As far as Sorweel could tell, the single thing that distinguished their group from the other Scions was geography. Where the others hailed from recalcitrant tribes and nations within the New Empire, they represented the few lands that still exceeded its grasp—at least until recently. “Between us we have the Aspect-Emperor surrounded!”Zsoronga would sometimes cry in joking terms.

But it was no joke, Sorweel had come to realize. Zsoronga, who would one day be Satakhan of High Holy Zeüm, the only nation that could hope to rival the New Empire, was cultivating friendships according to the interests of his people. He avoided the others simply because the Aspect-Emperor was renowned for his devious subtlety. Because spies had almost certainly been planted among the Scions.

I can't recall if any of these kids die in this book but I wonder if Bakker is introducing the confederates who fight against Kellhus or his godhood in the third series.

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To act without understanding. This, this he had decided, was the essential kernel, the spark that made worship worship. In High Ainon, during the fevered height of the Unification Wars, he had overseen the Sack of Sarneveh, an act of brutality that still jarred him from sleep from time to time. Afterward, when the Mathematicians reported that more than five thousand children had been counted among the dead, Proyas began shaking, a flutter that began with his fingers and bowel but soon climbed through his every bone. He dismissed his staff and vomited, wept, only to find him standing in the gloom of his pavilion, watching. “You should grieve,”the Aspect-Emperor said, his figure etched in a faint glow. “But do not think you have sinned. The World overmatches us, Proyas, so we make simple what we cannot otherwise comprehend. Nothing is more complicated than virtue and sin. All the atrocities you have committed in my name—all of them have their place. Do you understand this, Proyas? Do you understand why you will never understand?”

Fucking heartbreaking how Proyas and his piety have been played into a life of genocide and atrocity. It hits so hard because we saw his despair in the first trilogy to do the right thing in a world of compromise and how he kinda deserts in Shimeh at the end. Also like how the paragraph begins and ends, with his lack of understanding, cementing how he's been willingly deceived. And later in the book, Kellhus is revealing it to him, owning up to everything in the Compendium.

Yeah, since reading the WLW the first time I have thought he was willing to concede the empire to chaos after he marched on Golgotterath. I agree that the empire is just a means to the GO. I don't yet know why he is trying to save humanity. I feel like the last we clearly saw from his POV in TTT, was that he wanted to save humanity. He killed Moe because he believed Moe would eventually side with the Consult and thus destroy humanity. Since we haven't seen anything to in the AE to contradict his goal of saving mankind, it's hard to assume he is doing anything otherwise. I think the real surprise will be in how he fails and what implications that failure has.

The thing about the Dunyain is they almost always tell the truth, even when they have ulterior motives. He may very will defeat the Consult but I think there's something else he wants.

I don't recall if he actually thinks about saving the world, that's only what he and Moe say to eachother and we know everything they say is to gain advantage over another. And interspersed throughout this dialog,  Achamian is explaining to Esmenet that everything Kellhus accomplished and that they've experienced is based on a lie. Kellhus does think a Dunyain would join the Consult before killing Moe,  but he himself is already halfway down the path he envisioned there.

I also think that in the pursuit of the Absolute, the Dunyain will do anything to escape the machinations of others. When Kellhus is sent to kill Moenghus, he only resolves to dwell in his father's house. H had speculated that when he realizes how preconditioned his path has been, he then resolves to kill Moenghus. Now, the only intent remaining that holds any sway over him is the Thousandfold Thought. If it's truly a plan to save the world, what are the implications that he will try to subvert is influence in order to become a self-moving soul?

Tl;dr - everything Kellhus does is to control circumstance; how will he overcome the Thousandfold Thought, the last remaining circumstance that comes before him?

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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2016, 12:16:39 pm »
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As far as Sorweel could tell, the single thing that distinguished their group from the other Scions was geography. Where the others hailed from recalcitrant tribes and nations within the New Empire, they represented the few lands that still exceeded its grasp—at least until recently. “Between us we have the Aspect-Emperor surrounded!”Zsoronga would sometimes cry in joking terms.

But it was no joke, Sorweel had come to realize. Zsoronga, who would one day be Satakhan of High Holy Zeüm, the only nation that could hope to rival the New Empire, was cultivating friendships according to the interests of his people. He avoided the others simply because the Aspect-Emperor was renowned for his devious subtlety. Because spies had almost certainly been planted among the Scions.

I can't recall if any of these kids die in this book but I wonder if Bakker is introducing the confederates who fight against Kellhus or his godhood in the third series.

Indeed, I think that it probable.  What if Sorweel somehow becomes some sort of "resistance" fighter in the North, like Fanayal in the South?  And surely Zeüm would be a big part of any resistance to a New New Empire, perhaps.

Fucking heartbreaking how Proyas and his piety have been played into a life of genocide and atrocity. It hits so hard because we saw his despair in the first trilogy to do the right thing in a world of compromise and how he kinda deserts in Shimeh at the end. Also like how the paragraph begins and ends, with his lack of understanding, cementing how he's been willingly deceived. And later in the book, Kellhus is revealing it to him, owning up to everything in the Compendium.

Indeed, just got to that part, Chapter 7.

The thing about the Dunyain is they almost always tell the truth, even when they have ulterior motives. He may very will defeat the Consult but I think there's something else he wants.

I don't recall if he actually thinks about saving the world, that's only what he and Moe say to eachother and we know everything they say is to gain advantage over another. And interspersed throughout this dialog,  Achamian is explaining to Esmenet that everything Kellhus accomplished and that they've experienced is based on a lie. Kellhus does think a Dunyain would join the Consult before killing Moe,  but he himself is already halfway down the path he envisioned there.

I also think that in the pursuit of the Absolute, the Dunyain will do anything to escape the machinations of others. When Kellhus is sent to kill Moenghus, he only resolves to dwell in his father's house. H had speculated that when he realizes how preconditioned his path has been, he then resolves to kill Moenghus. Now, the only intent remaining that holds any sway over him is the Thousandfold Thought. If it's truly a plan to save the world, what are the implications that he will try to subvert is influence in order to become a self-moving soul?

Tl;dr - everything Kellhus does is to control circumstance; how will he overcome the Thousandfold Thought, the last remaining circumstance that comes before him?

An interesting point.  I think the divergence from what Kellhus thinks Moe would do (and he is probably right) and what he will do comes down to the domination and subjugation of the Outside.  Where Moe believes that nothing violates the Principle of Before and After, therefor the Outside is irrelevant and the closing of the world to it is not of much consequence, Kellhus believes that the Outside can be dominated in the same way that the Inside has been.

This is why he tells Moe, "I am more."  More what?  More than just the sum total of the Dűnyainic principles.  He believes he has transcended, or at least believes he can transcend the principles that bore him this far.  In other words, he can dominate both the Inside and the Outside.  The Thousandfold Thought is a lie, we are told this.  But what Kellhus believes is he can make it the literal Truth.

Why?  Consider, the whole reason why Kellhus succeeds is Moe's Thousandfold Thought.  But he comes to his own Thousandfold Thought at the Circumfixion.  The "madness" that Kellhus is afflicted with is certainty.  This certainty is born of Moe's Thousandfold Thought, that makes Kellhus believe in his rise is ordained.  Once he realizes that it was instead conditioned, it's too late, he already is certain that he can master both the Inside and Outside.  This is why he couldn't let Moe join the Consult, or wouldn't join them himself, because he wants the world open to the Outside, because it will be the font of his ultimate power, the Absolute.

Plausible?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2016, 12:46:24 pm »
Yea, I like both of your thoughts. I've never considered that Kellhus wouldn't want to be steered by another, no matter how obvious it now seems. I like where y'all are going with this.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2016, 02:13:39 pm »
Yea, I like both of your thoughts. I've never considered that Kellhus wouldn't want to be steered by another, no matter how obvious it now seems. I like where y'all are going with this.

Well, that complete thought didn't occur to me until Bolivar made his point.

However, it would seem to fit.  Self-moving soul and whatever the Absolute actually is.  It is possible that Kellhus fathoms that the font of the Absolute is the Outside.  Whether this is a delusion or not remains to be seen.

A great question though would be, does Kellhus actually comprehend the power of a God?  As in, does he realize what strong Yatwer is and what she can do?  This is a really big rock, since the answer (which I don't think we can know) really goes to the heart of what exactly can Sorweel or the WLW accomplish.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2016, 05:55:22 pm »
Ironically, the thought came to me from something you said on the cast we did!

I could definitely sees that Kellhus thinks he understands the Outside enough to dominate it instead of closing it off. His conversation with Achamian about metaphysics in TTT struck me as one of the most important dialogues in the series and might she'd light on what it is he's planning.

Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo

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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 06:58:54 am »
Reading this interaction between Proyas and Kelhus is way weirder
(click to show/hide)
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Odaini Concussion Cant first, ask questions later...