The Slog WLW - Chapter 3 [Spoilers]

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H

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« on: April 06, 2016, 12:00:41 pm »
Chapter 3:

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A scowl knits his brow. "The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn... The eye that watches from the God's own vantage."

So, is this something of confirmation that the Judging Eye is it's own Frame?  That the Unborn, that is, the wholly innocent, are the arbiters of judgement?

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A line of captives, wrist chained to wrist, ankle to ankle, wretched for abuse...
Standing encased in horror and ignorance, a file running the length of a shadowy tunnel...
His eyes rolled in equine panic. What now? What-what now?
He saw walls, which for an instant seemed golden but formed of mangled thatch, scrub and undergrowth, surging and twining to weave a black corridor about their miserable passage. He could even discern the terminus, over shoulders slouched in woe and capitulation, an opening of some kind, a clearing...
Bright with things he did not want to see.
His teeth were missing... Beaten?
Yes... Beaten from his skull.

What dream is this?  Dagliash?  Seems more like Golgotterath.

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At first he thought it had been carved—the product of some morbid scalper joke—but a second look told him otherwise. A skull. A human skull embedded in the coiled heartwood. Only a partial eye socket, a cheek, and several teeth—molars to canine—had been chiselled clear, but it was undeniably human.

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Could the Mop be a topos, a place where trauma had worn away the hard rind of the world? Could the trackless leagues before them be soaked in Hell?

Why a topos here?  The fall of the Meöri Empire?

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He would see them, whether high on a promontory or in a depression on the far side of a tree, Cleric sitting, but with his head bowed in such a manner that he seemed to be kneeling, while the Captain—who so rarely spoke otherwise—muttered over him, grinding out words that he could never quite hear.

We know that Kosoter must be Cleric's elju.  I guess each night he tells him something that keeps him on track, to remind him why he is there?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 03:25:28 pm »
Here;s my crackpot on that. Chorae were made using unborn children souls. Hence why outlawed and hence why they all tie up with the judging eye. Thats why they all have a peculiar flavour.

I think that dream is of the golden room just through the lens of the Mop, i believe later on in the book Akka mentions it.

I've thought about the trees but have nothing to give on it, maybe when i get back to there myself on re-read.

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 07:15:05 pm »
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No. I tell you this because I truly know very little. The Judging Eye is a folk legend, like the Kahiht or the White-Luck Warrior , notions that have been traded across too many generations to possess any clear meaning …”“I can see the fear in your eyes, old man. You think me cursed!” The Wizard regards her for several unblinking heartbeats. Worry. Pity. “Aye … I think you are cursed."

I have a feeling Akka is wrong here. I don't believe that Mimara is cursed, I have serious reservations about wether or not it will result in a stillbirth. I do really, really like @themerchant's theory that Chorae a tied to the souls of the unborn and makes plenty of sense. Mimara says that she has always had the JE and I know Akka goes on to explain that by the God of Gods, Mimara's life has already been lived. But, as Akka says all the knowledge he has is basically wives tales, which is unreliable.

But, this lead me to another thought. If your life has been lived through the eyes of the God of Gods, I'm sure Kellhus has deduced this. I believe Kellhus's eventual plan is to give humanity free will and honestly, to stop the 100 from interfering in their lives. I believe he has a twofold plan, to defeat the Consult and shut out the Outside at the same time. I'm not the first to say this, but I believe he is prepping Proyas for his death.

Now, there is a possibility that somehow how he doesn't shut the Outside. Rather, kills (i can think of no better word) all of the 100 and he ascends to awake The True God (the one that slumbers from his and Moe's convo.). I believe as other have said, maybe even Bakker himself, his goal is to make Earwa a meaningless world. No sorcery and such. Eh, my thoughts are so jumbled because this just hit me. I will try and explain better when I have the time.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 08:31:05 pm »
But, as Akka says all the knowledge he has is basically wives tales, which is unreliable.

wives tales are probably reliable given Akka doesn't think them reliable. Akka doesn't have wives tales though, he has something far more removed from such a primary source, he's got millenia of male assumptions, male (mis)interpretations, and male prejudice (and possibly deliberate misinformation) piled up on top of each other in the 'scholarly' tradition of diminishing the judging eye which can only be had by females. If something cannot be possesed by males it cannot have value. If it has obvious value that value must be explained away and diminished.

The mountain of prejudice from which Akka's information emit make it entirely unreliable. And note that Mimara's experiences with the judging eye and her own interpretation of it really don't correspond except in the vaguest of ways with Akka's misinformation.

MSJ

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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 08:49:41 pm »
Ok, Husband tales. Lol. I get where your coming from. Nevertheless, unreliable all the same.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 10:48:28 pm »
But, as Akka says all the knowledge he has is basically wives tales, which is unreliable.

wives tales are probably reliable given Akka doesn't think them reliable. Akka doesn't have wives tales though, he has something far more removed from such a primary source, he's got millenia of male assumptions, male (mis)interpretations, and male prejudice (and possibly deliberate misinformation) piled up on top of each other in the 'scholarly' tradition of diminishing the judging eye which can only be had by females. If something cannot be possesed by males it cannot have value. If it has obvious value that value must be explained away and diminished.

The mountain of prejudice from which Akka's information emit make it entirely unreliable. And note that Mimara's experiences with the judging eye and her own interpretation of it really don't correspond except in the vaguest of ways with Akka's misinformation.

Great point!
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2016, 09:55:56 am »
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Revelation rides the back of history …” Cleric said, sweeping his eyes to the arc of the horizon, to the innumerable miles of wilderness. “The enormities! Race … War … Faith … The truths that move the future.

Another clue, to me, that Seswatha is behind the dreams and they are the Truth. They are only fragments that have never been glimpsed before. It seems likely to me that Akka is Seswatha's conduit to these events. He is walking where Seswatha wants, not Kellhus. And he will find the truth.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2016, 12:26:18 pm »
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Revelation rides the back of history …” Cleric said, sweeping his eyes to the arc of the horizon, to the innumerable miles of wilderness. “The enormities! Race … War … Faith … The truths that move the future.

Another clue, to me, that Seswatha is behind the dreams and they are the Truth. They are only fragments that have never been glimpsed before. It seems likely to me that Akka is Seswatha's conduit to these events. He is walking where Seswatha wants, not Kellhus. And he will find the truth.

A major clue to me was also how Akka remarks at the unprecedented nature of the Dreams he was having.  How Seswatha's every day, mundane life began creeping into his Dreams.  I don't see how or why Kellhus would bother to send that, or would know that stuff.  I'm convinced with has been Seswatha all along.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 05:10:23 pm »
Here;s my crackpot on that. Chorae were made using unborn children souls. Hence why outlawed and hence why they all tie up with the judging eye. Thats why they all have a peculiar flavour.

Hmm. Perhaps, but they would have to be Emwama. The chorae were made before the breaking of the gates.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 05:22:10 pm »
Here;s my crackpot on that. Chorae were made using unborn children souls. Hence why outlawed and hence why they all tie up with the judging eye. Thats why they all have a peculiar flavour.

Hmm. Perhaps, but they would have to be Emwama. The chorae were made before the breaking of the gates.

There has also been speculation at one point that the Chorae were made from the uteri of the dead Nonmen women.  I have my doubts about all those, but I guess it is plausible.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 06:13:37 pm »
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A scowl knits his brow. “The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn … The eye that watches from the God’s own vantage.”

This reminds me of his earlier dream at the Library, where the map case becomes a stillborn, then the door opens to vantage of the No-God destroying the Library from above.

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 06:51:08 pm »
Here;s my crackpot on that. Chorae were made using unborn children souls. Hence why outlawed and hence why they all tie up with the judging eye. Thats why they all have a peculiar flavour.

Hmm. Perhaps, but they would have to be Emwama. The chorae were made before the breaking of the gates.

Yeah, also non-men are a possibility as well. As there is time between their creation and the womb-plague.

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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 07:45:03 pm »
Here;s my crackpot on that. Chorae were made using unborn children souls. Hence why outlawed and hence why they all tie up with the judging eye. Thats why they all have a peculiar flavour.

Hmm. Perhaps, but they would have to be Emwama. The chorae were made before the breaking of the gates.

Yeah, also non-men are a possibility as well. As there is time between their creation and the womb-plague.

Indeed, according to the Glossary, Chorae come about after Pir Pahal, so it predates the Second Watch and the "Many years of peace" that preceded it, so yeah, I doubt it could be the missing Nonmen women.  But recall that in the Ark there is the Well of the Aborted which could have even the Aporetics plenty of "material" to work with, if that is in fact that makes them.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira