The Slog WLW - Chapter 5 [Spoilers]

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« on: April 08, 2016, 12:29:18 pm »
Chapter 5:

Quote
That which comes after determines what comes before—in this World.

What a way to start the chapter.  A refutation of the very foundation that Kellhus' frame is built upon.  Is it true?  Or are both premises true, somehow?

Quote
"The Gods are-are finite," Theliopa declared in a voice that contradicted the stark angularity of her frame. "They can only apprehend a finite por-portion of existence. They fathom the future-future, certainly, but from a vantage that limits them. The No-God dwells in their blind spots, follows a path-path they are utterly oblivious to..." She turned, looking from man to man with open curiosity. "Because he is oblivion."

Again, is this true?  Even if they were blind to the No-God, they wouldn't be so blind to the Consult...

Quote
Their Empress graced them all with a sour smile. "The Gods chafe, because like all souls, they call evil what they cannot comprehend."
More astounded silence. Kelmomas found himself squinting in hilarity. Why anyone should fear the Gods was quite beyond him, let alone fools as privileged and powerful as these.
Because they are old and dying, the secret voice whispered.

The Gods are old and dying?

Quote
"So..." he said, looking to the others with a strategically blank face. "So it is true, then? The Gods..."—his gaze wandered—"the almighty Gods... are against us?"
Disaster. It fairly slapped the blood from Mother's painted face. Her lips retreated, the way they always did during such moments, into a thin line.
He offends me... the secret voice cooed. The fat one.

Why does he offend the voice?  Because he assumes that all the Gods' are in alignment?

Quote
Dûnyain blood... the secret voice whispered. What raises us above the animals.
Like Mother.

What a curious quote, "Like Mother."  Mother raises him about the animals too?
 
Quote
He thought about his previous murders and the mysterious person he saw trapped in the eyes of the dying. The one person he loved more than his mother—the one and only. Convulsing, bewildered, terrified, and beseeching... beseeching most of all.
Please! Please don't kill me!
"The Worshipper," he declared aloud.
Yes, the secret voice whispered. That's a good name.
"A most strange person, don't you think, Sammi?"
Most strange.
"The Worshipper..." Kelmomas said, testing the sound. "How can he travel like that from body to body?"
Perhaps he's locked in a room. Perhaps dying is that room's only door...
"Locked in a room!" the young Prince-Imperial cried laughing. "Yes! Clever-clever-cunning-clever!"

What?  The person he sees in the eyes of everyone he kills?  Who would that be?  And why?  The locked in a room is just the idea to make him go see Inrilatas.

Quote
And his brother's voice resonated, climbed as if communicating up out of his bones. "You think you seek the love of our mother, little brother—Little Knife! You think you murder in her name. But that love is simply cloth thrown over the invisible, what you use to reveal the shape of something so much greater..."
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug—laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shrieked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless...
And the boy could feel it! An assumption of glory. A taking possession of a certainty that had possessed him all along—possessed him in ignorance... Yes!
Godhead.

I feel like this part is actually true...Kel plays at Godhood, the same as Kellhus actually.  Is this why he really fears his father so much?  Because he realizes that they both can't achieve the same goal?

Quote
And perhaps most interestingly, absolutely no Chorae...
Nganka—nay, Zeüm—needed to be informed. This night would be filled with far-calling dreams.

Foreshadowing?  Zeümi sorcerers in the future collapse of the Empire?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 02:58:25 pm »
Chapter 5:

Quote
"The Gods are-are finite," Theliopa declared in a voice that contradicted the stark angularity of her frame. "They can only apprehend a finite por-portion of existence. They fathom the future-future, certainly, but from a vantage that limits them. The No-God dwells in their blind spots, follows a path-path they are utterly oblivious to..." She turned, looking from man to man with open curiosity. "Because he is oblivion."

Again, is this true?  Even if they were blind to the No-God, they wouldn't be so blind to the Consult...


I've always interpreted this as meaning that the gods can only see the broad strokes of time and space.  The "finite por-portion" bit makes it sound a lot like the effects of quantization and sampling error when you discretize a continuous signal.  It also reminds me a bit of the physicist Ed Friedkin's theory of a discrete universe. 


Quote
"So..." he said, looking to the others with a strategically blank face. "So it is true, then? The Gods..."—his gaze wandered—"the almighty Gods... are against us?"
Disaster. It fairly slapped the blood from Mother's painted face. Her lips retreated, the way they always did during such moments, into a thin line.
He offends me... the secret voice cooed. The fat one.

Why does he offend the voice?  Because he assumes that all the Gods' are in alignment?

Quote
Dûnyain blood... the secret voice whispered. What raises us above the animals.
Like Mother.

What a curious quote, "Like Mother."  Mother raises him about the animals too?


I think he's saying that Esme is an animal.

 
Quote
He thought about his previous murders and the mysterious person he saw trapped in the eyes of the dying. The one person he loved more than his mother—the one and only. Convulsing, bewildered, terrified, and beseeching... beseeching most of all.
Please! Please don't kill me!
"The Worshipper," he declared aloud.
Yes, the secret voice whispered. That's a good name.
"A most strange person, don't you think, Sammi?"
Most strange.
"The Worshipper..." Kelmomas said, testing the sound. "How can he travel like that from body to body?"
Perhaps he's locked in a room. Perhaps dying is that room's only door...
"Locked in a room!" the young Prince-Imperial cried laughing. "Yes! Clever-clever-cunning-clever!"

What?  The person he sees in the eyes of everyone he kills?  Who would that be?  And why?  The locked in a room is just the idea to make him go see Inrilatas.


I took this to be metaphorical.  Kel believes that in the dying, he sees proof of his Godhood. 

Good catch on "locked in a room".  It shows the subtlety of the voice's manipulations.  I almost wonder if the voice isn't a God at all, but a second Dunyain soul trapped in the same body?


Quote
And his brother's voice resonated, climbed as if communicating up out of his bones. "You think you seek the love of our mother, little brother—Little Knife! You think you murder in her name. But that love is simply cloth thrown over the invisible, what you use to reveal the shape of something so much greater..."
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug—laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shrieked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless...
And the boy could feel it! An assumption of glory. A taking possession of a certainty that had possessed him all along—possessed him in ignorance... Yes!
Godhead.

I feel like this part is actually true...Kel plays at Godhood, the same as Kellhus actually.  Is this why he really fears his father so much?  Because he realizes that they both can't achieve the same goal?


It reads like Kelmomas consisders himself above the Gods -- like Kellhus.  I agree that there is this implicit "there can be only one" to the idea of being the God-of-Gods.


Quote
And perhaps most interestingly, absolutely no Chorae...
Nganka—nay, Zeüm—needed to be informed. This night would be filled with far-calling dreams.

Foreshadowing?  Zeümi sorcerers in the future collapse of the Empire?

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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 03:04:16 pm »
The parts you point out about the voice and mother are, for me, proof that the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas. The voice speaks just like a child that is devoted with the kind of intensity and intellect that only a half Dunyain child could have. It thinks "mother" raises them above animals, because just like Kel, the voice views Esmi as divine. It was offended by the "fat man" because his words disturbed Esmi.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 03:08:45 pm »
Another Chapter 5 tidbit from the Kel/Inrilatas conversation:

Quote
"I... I don't understand, [Kelmomas] sad.  "You could leave this room... anytime you wished!  Mother would release you -- I know it.  You just need to follow the rules."

His brother paused, looked at him as if searching for evidence of kinship beyond the fact of their blood.  "Tell me, little brother, what rules the rule?"

Something is wrong... the voice warned.

The "something", I think, is the realization that Inrilatas knows about Kelmomas' ambitions -- to become the God.  It demonstrates the depth of Dunyain manipulation in a way they we really only see with Kellhus in PON.


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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 04:52:11 pm »
The parts you point out about the voice and mother are, for me, proof that the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas. The voice speaks just like a child that is devoted with the kind of intensity and intellect that only a half Dunyain child could have. It thinks "mother" raises them above animals, because just like Kel, the voice views Esmi as divine. It was offended by the "fat man" because his words disturbed Esmi.

I go back and forth.  Sometimes I agree, other's I have a lot of doubt it would actually be Sammy.

Another Chapter 5 tidbit from the Kel/Inrilatas conversation:

Quote
"I... I don't understand, [Kelmomas] sad.  "You could leave this room... anytime you wished!  Mother would release you -- I know it.  You just need to follow the rules."

His brother paused, looked at him as if searching for evidence of kinship beyond the fact of their blood.  "Tell me, little brother, what rules the rule?"

Something is wrong... the voice warned.

The "something", I think, is the realization that Inrilatas knows about Kelmomas' ambitions -- to become the God.  It demonstrates the depth of Dunyain manipulation in a way they we really only see with Kellhus in PON.

I wonder if Kel even realizes the full extent though.  Like, is he sort of unwittingly exacting the voice's plan?  Sometimes it seems like he kind of is, in doing everything for Esmenet's affection.  The voice is after much more than that.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 05:11:57 pm »
The parts you point out about the voice and mother are, for me, proof that the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas. The voice speaks just like a child that is devoted with the kind of intensity and intellect that only a half Dunyain child could have. It thinks "mother" raises them above animals, because just like Kel, the voice views Esmi as divine. It was offended by the "fat man" because his words disturbed Esmi.

I go back and forth.  Sometimes I agree, other's I have a lot of doubt it would actually be Sammy.

Another Chapter 5 tidbit from the Kel/Inrilatas conversation:

Quote
"I... I don't understand, [Kelmomas] sad.  "You could leave this room... anytime you wished!  Mother would release you -- I know it.  You just need to follow the rules."

His brother paused, looked at him as if searching for evidence of kinship beyond the fact of their blood.  "Tell me, little brother, what rules the rule?"

Something is wrong... the voice warned.

The "something", I think, is the realization that Inrilatas knows about Kelmomas' ambitions -- to become the God.  It demonstrates the depth of Dunyain manipulation in a way they we really only see with Kellhus in PON.

I wonder if Kel even realizes the full extent though.  Like, is he sort of unwittingly exacting the voice's plan?  Sometimes it seems like he kind of is, in doing everything for Esmenet's affection.  The voice is after much more than that.

I'm not so sure that's entirely Kel's motivation. Sometimes his love seems quite controlling and abusive. IIRC he thinks about how easy it would be to kill Esmi.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 07:17:18 pm »
Don't know if this has been brought up before but could Inrilatas be Kel's hidden voice?

"Perhaps he's locked in a room. Perhaps dying is that room's only door...
"Locked in a room!" the young Prince-Imperial cried laughing. "Yes! Clever-clever-cunning-clever!"

We know Dunyain mostly speak truth when facing each other, so instead of telling the truth of Kel's hidden voice could Inrilatas be confirming his part in the voice here:

"And his brother's voice resonated, climbed as if communicating up out of his bones. "You think you seek the love of our mother, little brother—Little Knife! You think you murder in her name. But that love is simply cloth thrown over the invisible, what you use to reveal the shape of something so much greater..."
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug—laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shrieked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless...
And the boy could feel it! An assumption of glory. A taking possession of a certainty that had possessed him all along—possessed him in ignorance... Yes!
Godhead."
 
we know Inrilatas thinks of himself as the ultimate expression of a soul that moves itself and via the voice he's implanted in Kel's mind he creates the circumstances for his escape, Death.

hopefully you guys can see where I'm going with this crackpot
I am the falcon of
the morning, the hawk of
the afternoon. I am the sun,
as you are, and I know the
True Name of Ra. My
mother told me

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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 12:05:21 am »
Don't know if this has been brought up before but could Inrilatas be Kel's hidden voice?

"Perhaps he's locked in a room. Perhaps dying is that room's only door...
"Locked in a room!" the young Prince-Imperial cried laughing. "Yes! Clever-clever-cunning-clever!"

We know Dunyain mostly speak truth when facing each other, so instead of telling the truth of Kel's hidden voice could Inrilatas be confirming his part in the voice here:

"And his brother's voice resonated, climbed as if communicating up out of his bones. "You think you seek the love of our mother, little brother—Little Knife! You think you murder in her name. But that love is simply cloth thrown over the invisible, what you use to reveal the shape of something so much greater..."
Memories tumbled into his soul's eye. Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug—laughed together! Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shrieked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless...
And the boy could feel it! An assumption of glory. A taking possession of a certainty that had possessed him all along—possessed him in ignorance... Yes!
Godhead."
 
we know Inrilatas thinks of himself as the ultimate expression of a soul that moves itself and via the voice he's implanted in Kel's mind he creates the circumstances for his escape, Death.

hopefully you guys can see where I'm going with this crackpot

Interesting. Never heard that before, and please elaborate where you're going with it. My interest is piqued!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 07:59:48 pm »
Like i said before Inrilatas likes to think of himself as a God and earlier in their conversation Inrilatas tells Kel that he's heaping damnation upon himself, and what greater sin can there be than a God putting in motion the circumstances for his own murder, as happens later when Maitha kills him, surely Inrilatas knew he could never really challenge Maitha and win. pretty much all of this is accomplished through manipulating Kel via the voice to bring about Inrilatas' death.
I am the falcon of
the morning, the hawk of
the afternoon. I am the sun,
as you are, and I know the
True Name of Ra. My
mother told me

MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 08:26:31 pm »
Quote
His cowl thrown back, Meppa raised the band from his head. His hair was as white as the peaks of the Atkondras, his skin nut brown. No eyes glinted from the shadow of his sockets.

Meppa is eyeless.

Quote
Did Thelli lack the heart to grieve this as well? Kelmomas had never been able to read much of anything in his sister. She was like Uncle Maithanet that way— only harmless.

I just have a feeling this isn't true. She might be harmless to any of the Anasurimbor Dynasty, but I believe she will have a role to play come TGO/TUC.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:34:37 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2016, 10:51:28 pm »
Quote
His cowl thrown back, Meppa raised the band from his head. His hair was as white as the peaks of the Atkondras, his skin nut brown. No eyes glinted from the shadow of his sockets.

Meppa is eyeless.

Quote
Did Thelli lack the heart to grieve this as well? Kelmomas had never been able to read much of anything in his sister. She was like Uncle Maithanet that way— only harmless.

I just have a feeling this isn't true. She might be harmless to any of the Anasurimbor Dynasty, but I believe she will have a role to play come TGO/TUC.

And Ketyai from the sound of it. Good catch.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 07:19:56 pm »
I've been set on the voice being Samarmus since rereading the Judging Eye:

Quote
  The young Prince-Imperial was careful to wipe the olive oil from the rail. Then he howled the way a little boy should.
  Why? the voice asked. The secret voice.
  Why didn’t you kill me sooner?

Quote
“Holy Empress, please!” Pansulla exclaimed. “This … this talk … it does not answer our fears! At the very least you must give us something to tell the people!”

I felt like this scene was a little contrived. This dude really came before the Empress and even taunts her because he wants to know what to say?

Quote
“Most Holy Empress,” Lord Sankas said into the ensuing silence. “I fear the situation with your brother-in-law grows untenable …”

And this seemed a little premature. What was happening at this point between Maithanet and Esmenet?

Quote
  Kelmomas never understood why she disdained using people—Father certainly never hesitated— but he adored the way it gave them more time alone. Again and again, he got to hug her and to kiss her and to cuddle-cuddle …
  Ever since he had murdered Samarmas.

I love the passages that get capped off by a sentence that changes direction completely like a punch in the gut. This has always been one of my favorites.

Quote
If Father is gone … the secret voice dared whisper. “It would appear so,” she said, speaking about a crack in her voice. “I fear it has something to do with your uncle.”

Maybe Kellhus feels safe enough to contact them again now that Maithanet is dead? I kinda wanna revisit my Maithanet/Consult theory.

Quote
“All of us have inherited our Father’s faculties in some mangled measure. Me … I possess his sensitivities, but I utterly lack his unity … his control . My natures blow through me—hungers, glorious hungers!— unfettered by the little armies of shame that hold the souls of others in absolute captivity. Father’s reason mystifies me. Mother’s compassion makes me howl with laughter. I am the World’s only unbound soul …”

This is a great section for so many reasons. The dialogue always shines in this series when the hedonism/self-restraint dichotomy is brought up. But it also seems to reveal Inrilatas  is skipping the Dunyain "war for circimstance" and just straight up jumping to the Absolute.

He considers himself free because he does not follow the social norms of his environment. We have many extreme examples of that in history, such as Libertines and Levayan Satanists. The religious response would be we are only truly free when we unhinge ourselves from our base impulses. And Bakker's series indeed argues that Inrilatas' choices are actually tied to our nature. The Dunyain recognize this and seek to free themselves from animal appetite. So I think he only grasps half of the Dunyain program and truly is mad, he's just able to rationalize his madness in a warped form of logic because of his intellect. Then again, we know the Outside seeps into the Ground through the cracks of madness - perhaps underneath it all, Inrilatas understands this and cleaves at his own sanity as a backdoor to the Absolute.

On the other hand, what if Inrilatas is right?. If heaping damnation upon oneself is the is the path to a self-moving soul, what better way to grasp the Absolute than unleashing the Second Apocalypse?

Quote
“The God punishes us according to the degree we resemble him.”
  Inrilatas towered before him.
  “And you resemble him, little brother. You resemble …”
  What was this trap he had set for him? How could understanding, insight, capture?
  “No!”the boy cried. “I am not mad! I am not like you!”
  Laughter, warm and gentle. So like Mother when she is lazy and wishes only to tease and cuddle her beautiful little son.  "Look,” Anasûrimbor Inrilatas commanded. “Look at this heap of screams you call the world, and tell me you would not add to them—pile them to the sky!”
  He has the Strength, the secret voice whispered.
  “I would …”Anasûrimbor Kelmomas admitted. “I would.” His limbs trembled. His heart hung as if plummeting through a void. What was this crashing within him? What was this release?
  The Truth!

Like Kellhus' children, Maithanet is only half Dunyain. Who's to say he doesn't suffer from the same deformities as the rest of his nephews and nieces? Maybe that's why Kellhus doesn't trust him, at least not with the Empire, and Bakker has been beating us over the head with it the whole time.

Quote
The Men of the Three Seas, he had come to realize, warred without mercy or honour . Where the dynastic skirmishes his Zeümi kinsmen called war were bound by ancient code and custom, Fanayal and his men recognized no constraints that he could see, save that of military expediency and exhaustion.
  They fought the way Sranc fought.

Final crackpot for the day: the Inchoroi created Men (maybe just the Ketyai) as their final weapon race to destroy the Cunoroi. The Nonman Tutelage was an effort to turn Men away from their masters and neutralize their genocidal purpose.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 07:29:18 pm by Bolivar »

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2016, 01:21:52 pm »
Quote
“Holy Empress, please!” Pansulla exclaimed. “This … this talk … it does not answer our fears! At the very least you must give us something to tell the people!”

I felt like this scene was a little contrived. This dude really came before the Empress and even taunts her because he wants to know what to say?

I think that is a sign of his incompetence.  He is asking for her to tell him how to do is job, essentially. 

Quote
“Most Holy Empress,” Lord Sankas said into the ensuing silence. “I fear the situation with your brother-in-law grows untenable …”

And this seemed a little premature. What was happening at this point between Maithanet and Esmenet?

I think it was a sort of "cold war" thing.  Where they were sort of hostile, but not in a outright way.

This is a great section for so many reasons. The dialogue always shines in this series when the hedonism/self-restraint dichotomy is brought up. But it also seems to reveal Inrilatas  is skipping the Dunyain "war for circimstance" and just straight up jumping to the Absolute.

He considers himself free because he does not follow the social norms of his environment. We have many extreme examples of that in history, such as Libertines and Levayan Satanists. The religious response would be we are only truly free when we unhinge ourselves from our base impulses. And Bakker's series indeed argues that Inrilatas' choices are actually tied to our nature. The Dunyain recognize this and seek to free themselves from animal appetite. So I think he only grasps half of the Dunyain program and truly is mad, he's just able to rationalize his madness in a warped form of logic because of his intellect. Then again, we know the Outside seeps into the Ground through the cracks of madness - perhaps underneath it all, Inrilatas understands this and cleaves at his own sanity as a backdoor to the Absolute.

On the other hand, what if Inrilatas is right?. If heaping damnation upon oneself is the is the path to a self-moving soul, what better way to grasp the Absolute than unleashing the Second Apocalypse?

Well, I think that Inrilatas is right.  Actually thinking through this, realize then that the Consult is full of self-moving souls.  No wonder then that Kellhus says that the Dûnyain would side with them.  Thing is though, that while it is a way, it's not the only way.  The path that Kellhus walks is different, because he believes he can achieve dominance of both the Inside and Outside, no sacrifices.

I think the Second Apocalypse is unavoidable.  Kellhus is attempting to prevent the Consult's version and replace it with one of his own.  I think Kellhus rejects the Consult version because in it, Gods are turned off and the human population is minimized.  In Kellhus' he is a God and he rules the Outside and Inside, so he wants there to still be a world.

Like Kellhus' children, Maithanet is only half Dunyain. Who's to say he doesn't suffer from the same deformities as the rest of his nephews and nieces? Maybe that's why Kellhus doesn't trust him, at least not with the Empire, and Bakker has been beating us over the head with it the whole time.

I think it is more that Maitha has his role.  And that is not to keep the Empire intact.  If Kellhus wanted the Empire to stay intact, he wouldn't have left Fanayal alive.

Final crackpot for the day: the Inchoroi created Men (maybe just the Ketyai) as their final weapon race to destroy the Cunoroi. The Nonman Tutelage was an effort to turn Men away from their masters and neutralize their genocidal purpose.

Well, I do believe that the Inchoroi were attempting to weaponize Men, but the falsification of the Tusk and it's proclamation of the falseness of the Nonmen.  I think the Tutelage was actually the more sane of the Nonmen's attempt to circumvent this.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 03:21:46 pm »

Like Kellhus' children, Maithanet is only half Dunyain. Who's to say he doesn't suffer from the same deformities as the rest of his nephews and nieces? Maybe that's why Kellhus doesn't trust him, at least not with the Empire, and Bakker has been beating us over the head with it the whole time.

I think it is more that Maitha has his role.  And that is not to keep the Empire intact.  If Kellhus wanted the Empire to stay intact, he wouldn't have left Fanayal alive.


Excellent point.  Given Kellhus' general badassery, it seems unlikely that he couldn't have gotten rid of Fanayal.  By instead relying on his more conventional forces to chase Fanayal, he effectively turned him into a legendary guerilla fighter.

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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 03:56:42 pm »
Excellent point.  Given Kellhus' general badassery, it seems unlikely that he couldn't have gotten rid of Fanayal.  By instead relying on his more conventional forces to chase Fanayal, he effectively turned him into a legendary guerilla fighter.

There is an alternative explaination that I'm not sure I'm on board with, but it does fit with the overall theme of WLW and that is that the Solitary God is actually protecting Fanayal.  This ties in to Meppa really being a gift from the Solitary God as well.

Even so though, Kellhus does nothing to stop the Empire from colapsing, which means he really is choosing to have it be so, because we know he could actually stop it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira