The Slog WLW - Chapter 6 [Spoilers]

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« on: April 11, 2016, 12:03:52 pm »
Chapter 6:

Quote
"There is only one way to save yourself," it rasps.
"And how is that?"
"Kill the Captain."

Why the Captain?  It has to know what will happen to Cleric should Kosoter die...

Quote
The suspicion that the Consult has sent the skin-spy, not to assassinate Achamian or to sabotage the expedition, no. Her fear is that the Consult has sent it to assist them... to ensure they reach Sauglish and the Coffers.

As we'll later see, this seems unlikely...

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"Tell me!" Incariol cries in hushed tones. "Tell me why I am here!"
A moment of glaring impatience. "Because they remind you."
"But who? They remind me of who?" Even as Cleric says this his glittering black eyes wander toward her.
"Someone you once knew," the Captain grates. "They remind you of someone you once—"

A glimpse at the role of the elju.

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"Is it true," he inexplicably asks, "that being touched by another and touching oneself are quite distinct sensations for Men?"
The question bewilders and embarrasses her, to the point of drawing even more heat to her flushed face. "Yes... I suppose..."

OK, now that is just weird.  For Nonmen there is no difference?

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Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.
For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.
Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...
And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.

So, she seems herself as essentially divine?  Perhaps this is some foreshadowing?  Or, perhaps, is she divine because the child she caries?

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The Captain, it seemed, was a Believer.
Zaudunyani.

There is more to the Captain that we really know.  We always get hints at how he seems more, this is just another,

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"You were to watch him," the bird said, a miniature scowl creasing its expression.
"Things have changed."
Eyes like blue beads closed then opened. "How so?"
The thing called Soma dared raise Mimara's face. "A sorcerer, a Gnostic sorcerer, hired the company several weeks ago... He hopes to find the Coffers."

OK, so Aurang says you were to watch him, so it was not sent to watch Mimara, but the Soma-agent says that Akka is unexpected.  Aurang is surprised too.  So, the leaves Cleric and Kosoter.  Since the Soma-agent is trying to get them to kill him though, my guess is it the Captain that Soma was sent to keep an eye on actually.  There is though as plausible a case that it's Cleric, but I am just going on my gut here...

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"No... I'm not sure... He claims to be a Wizard, a sorcerer without a School. Even still, Chigra burns strong in him. Very strong."

Interesting that the Soma-agent finds Chigra's presence strong, remarkably strong.  Kind of support, perhaps, that it is indeed Seswatha that is sending Akka the Dreams.

Quote
"Then she cannot be harmed. All the prophecies must be respected, the false as much as the true."

The age old question, again.  Where do the Consult get these prophecies?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2016, 02:55:30 pm »
You have some really interesting catches here. I'm of the opinion that Soma is watching Cleric. It seems likely that the Consult would want to keep an eye on the last Non-man king.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 03:12:13 pm »
You have some really interesting catches here. I'm of the opinion that Soma is watching Cleric. It seems likely that the Consult would want to keep an eye on the last Non-man king.

I was thinking the same thing initially, but then why does he suggest killing Kosoter?

There is the possibility that the Soma-agent knows full-well that none of them could kill Cleric.  What makes little sense though, no matter how you slice it though, is that killing Kosoter means Cleric goes erratic, which probably kills Mimara, which is exactly what the Soma Agent says it is trying to prevent (and does, actually).

Perhaps I am drawing too deep though, perhaps they are just actually worried about Cleric remembering things.  So, by killing Kosoter and removing the elju, there is almost no chance he remembers anything and just keeps wondering.  Perhaps a play to keep him outside Ishterebinth and out of the Consult's hair, so to speak.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 03:20:39 pm »
You have some really interesting catches here. I'm of the opinion that Soma is watching Cleric. It seems likely that the Consult would want to keep an eye on the last Non-man king.

I was thinking the same thing initially, but then why does he suggest killing Kosoter?

There is the possibility that the Soma-agent knows full-well that none of them could kill Cleric.  What makes little sense though, no matter how you slice it though, is that killing Kosoter means Cleric goes erratic, which probably kills Mimara, which is exactly what the Soma Agent says it is trying to prevent (and does, actually).

Perhaps I am drawing too deep though, perhaps they are just actually worried about Cleric remembering things.  So, by killing Kosoter and removing the elju, there is almost no chance he remembers anything and just keeps wondering.  Perhaps a play to keep him outside Ishterebinth and out of the Consult's hair, so to speak.
Well, we don't know what actually happens to Cleric should his Elju die. Kellhus kills Mek's in TDTCB, and Mek just says it will be hard to replace. So perhaps if Kosoter were to be killed, Cleric will simply keep forgetting until he has a lucid enough moment to find a new Elju and draft him/her into service.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 03:38:39 pm »
Well, we don't know what actually happens to Cleric should his Elju die. Kellhus kills Mek's in TDTCB, and Mek just says it will be hard to replace. So perhaps if Kosoter were to be killed, Cleric will simply keep forgetting until he has a lucid enough moment to find a new Elju and draft him/her into service.

True, there is also the possibility that the Soma-agent is just trying to keep Cleric from reaching Sauglish too.  Perhaps afraid of what he might remember if he makes it there?

The Soma-agent certainly knows that without the Captain, the chances are very much against the Slog making it.  Plus, I am guessing it also knows that Kosoter is a Zaudunyani and I doubt if that doesn't factor in somehow too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 05:53:00 pm »
You have some really interesting catches here. I'm of the opinion that Soma is watching Cleric. It seems likely that the Consult would want to keep an eye on the last Non-man king.

I might be getting ahead on chapters.  But doesn't Soma ask Mimara for her Chorae so he can destroy Cleric? 

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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 06:36:19 pm »
You have some really interesting catches here. I'm of the opinion that Soma is watching Cleric. It seems likely that the Consult would want to keep an eye on the last Non-man king.

I might be getting ahead on chapters.  But doesn't Soma ask Mimara for her Chorae so he can destroy Cleric? 

Yeah, that will come later.  It believes, or at least it keeps telling Mimara that the Qirri is poison, or at least want's her to believe this.

Again though, it's unclear, is it just trying to stop them from going to the Library?  Or is the Qirri really poison, are there some later side-effects?  Or do they fear that if they get to the Library, Wutteat will kill them?

I do believe that it actually is trying to "save" Mimara, but from what it is completely unclear.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 07:25:26 pm »
Yeah, that will come later.  It believes, or at least it keeps telling Mimara that the Qirri is poison, or at least want's her to believe this.

Again though, it's unclear, is it just trying to stop them from going to the Library?  Or is the Qirri really poison, are there some later side-effects?  Or do they fear that if they get to the Library, Wutteat will kill them?

I do believe that it actually is trying to "save" Mimara, but from what it is completely unclear.

My money would be on the Captain, for many of the reasons you've said. We know that the Captain eventually reveals that he knows who Mimara is and imprisons Akka. I'm sure that eventually he was gonna kill Akka and even says he'll take Mimara back to Kellhus (or Esme?). They (Consult) know of the true and false prophecies and want Mimara safe. We know the Captain is more than just an Ainoini Captain. Wether he has been to hell, posessed or whatever, that's who I believe Soma was watching from the beginning. And, it would seem as if Soma was a Skin-Spy all along.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 07:30:47 pm »
Yeah, that will come later.  It believes, or at least it keeps telling Mimara that the Qirri is poison, or at least want's her to believe this.

Again though, it's unclear, is it just trying to stop them from going to the Library?  Or is the Qirri really poison, are there some later side-effects?  Or do they fear that if they get to the Library, Wutteat will kill them?

I do believe that it actually is trying to "save" Mimara, but from what it is completely unclear.

My money would be on the Captain, for many of the reasons you've said. We know that the Captain eventually reveals that he knows who Mimara is and imprisons Akka. I'm sure that eventually he was gonna kill Akka and even says he'll take Mimara back to Kellhus (or Esme?). They (Consult) know of the true and false prophecies and want Mimara safe. We know the Captain is more than just an Ainoini Captain. Wether he has been to hell, posessed or whatever, that's who I believe Soma was watching from the beginning. And, it would seem as if Soma was a Skin-Spy all along.

Oh, yeah, I'm definitely buying Soma having always been replaced.  And indeed, I think it plausible that it was sent to watch the Captain all along, perhaps because of Cleric, or perhaps not.  Indeed, Aurang may well have known that Kosoter was Kellhus' man, so they wanted to watch what Kellhus was watching, essentially.

We'll get to it later, but trying to kill Cleric might be because it knows that without Cleric dead, they probably can't kill the Captain.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 07:45:22 pm »
So, I know it's later on, but the Captain imprisoning Akka with a chorae, would to me, confirm that Kellhus wasn't involved in this journey. Wouldn't it? I mean, if Kellhus wants Akka to reach a certain place, why would the Captain want him dead? Why wouldn't he be protecting him? This combined with H's quote abouts Akka being very strong with Chigra, would suggest that Seswatha not Kellhus is sending the dreams.

Which has been my thoughts for awhile now. I have a feeling that Ishual is gonna reveal something extraordinary (duh). And, I'm of the opinion that everyone there is not dead. Someone or something has to be there.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 11:01:37 pm »


Which has been my thoughts for awhile now. I have a feeling that Ishual is gonna reveal something extraordinary (duh). And, I'm of the opinion that everyone there is not dead. Someone or something has to be there.
Which we will find out in May according to Pat!
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 01:38:55 pm »
Akka seems to be jumping back and forth between to "channels" of dreams. The first being dreams that lead to Ishaul and the second are dreams thru the eyes of Nau-Cayűti.
 Which makes me think more then one person is sending Akka dreams. one person being Seswatha who is leading Akka to Ishual but someone else is showing him the last moments and maybe the "No-God-a-facation" of Nau-Cayűti. Who then went on a rampage destroying Sauglish, looking for Seswatha. 
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 08:32:44 pm »
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Mimara,” he says, his tone so simple with astonishment that for an instant he seems a mortal man. “Your name is … Mimara …” He turns to her, his eyes brimming with human joy. She shudders at the glimpse of his fused teeth— there is something too dark about his smile. “Ages have passed,” he says wondering, “since I have remembered a human name …” Mimara.

This struck me and I believe establish a link between the Nonmen and the Dunyain (or, at least will). Back when Akka has the Ishual dream, Nayu Cayuti asks Celmommas at the very end, "Daddy, who is Mimara?". This has to be related to the above quote, and very likely to the very "seeds" that Celmommas has planted in Ishual. I'd bet my bottom dollar.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 09:42:04 pm »
I think Mimara might be a name in a prophecy somewhere.

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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 10:59:26 pm »
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Mimara,” he says, his tone so simple with astonishment that for an instant he seems a mortal man. “Your name is … Mimara …” He turns to her, his eyes brimming with human joy. She shudders at the glimpse of his fused teeth— there is something too dark about his smile. “Ages have passed,” he says wondering, “since I have remembered a human name …” Mimara.

This struck me and I believe establish a link between the Nonmen and the Dunyain (or, at least will). Back when Akka has the Ishual dream, Nayu Cayuti asks Celmommas at the very end, "Daddy, who is Mimara?". This has to be related to the above quote, and very likely to the very "seeds" that Celmommas has planted in Ishual. I'd bet my bottom dollar.

I read that differently than you. IIRC, doesn't Akka wake up to find Cleric standing over him? I thought this was a case of someone saying something that intrudes into your dreams. Happens to me all the time. I think the significance is that Cleric is just trying to find out more about her. This is before the big reveal at the end.
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