The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]

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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 10:48:15 am »
I'm only skeptical of Kellhus, after the Bakker quote about his test readers not seeing through his manipulation. And we see in Esmenet's reflections in TJE just how little Kellhus bothered to appease her heart. Still, there may be something  to this.

The Dunyain trade in truth. I believe it was H on a podcast who remarked how his wife found it strange Kellhus is supposed to be a deceiver on a secret mission but he tells everyone who he is and what he's after. It wasn't just a good observation on how he operates, I also thought it added an interesting perspective on why they call themselves the Dunyain and the significance of the salutation 'Truth Shines.'

Inrilatas and Maithanet spend too much time on it for it not to have some significance. Kellhus indicates later to Proyas that he does not love Esmenet but I don't know. I have a feeling this will be revisited in TGO, if Kellhus really did intend Esmenet to succeed the whole time.

Yeah, while I do believe that Kellhus does (and did) have actual human feelings for Esmenet, those vestigal passions we hear of in TTT conversation, I do not believe that those are what is the prime mover for Kellhus, nor do I think those are what move him now.  They were more like speed-bumps than anything else really.

I don't see anywhere in WLW where Kellhus belies that he loves Esmenet, even if he really still does.  Keep in mind, the Interdiction is taken on by Kellhus, yet he is not cut off at all.  So, the Interdiction isn't about him depriving himself of what is going on, but rather to deprive everyone in Mommen of him, most especially Esmenet.  The added benefit of depriving those in the Great Ordeal of the news of what goes on now in the Three Seas.  So, in this way, Kellhus tells the truth, but like most truths, it is only the merest part of what is really going on.

Indeed though, that was my wife who pointed that out.  She has a pretty good point too, how none of what we are really told by Kellhus at first really makes much sense, from the dreams sent, to the Pragma sending him and walking themselves down to the TTH, to the sudden change of him now being an assassin.

Consider this, if it is Darkness that comes before and Truth shines, then the Truth is what replaces the Darkness.  I think the crux of it though, like Wutteat loves to say, "is not truth infinite?"  There isn't really a Truth (capital T), there are truths and there is little difference between a natural truth and a lie made true.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 02:38:57 pm »


Indeed though, that was my wife who pointed that out.  She has a pretty good point too, how none of what we are really told by Kellhus at first really makes much sense, from the dreams sent, to the Pragma sending him and walking themselves down to the TTH, to the sudden change of him now being an assassin.



I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 03:19:03 pm »
I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.

Quote
Shimeh will be my home. I shall dwell in my father’s house.

Quote
“I search for my father, Moënghus,” Kellhus said. “Anasûrimbor Moënghus.”

Quote
“I still live because my father passed through your lands in your youth and committed some crime for which you seek redress. I don’t think it possible for you to kill me, though this is your desire. You’re too intelligent to find satisfaction in substitutes. You understand the danger I represent, and yet you still hope to use me as the instrument of your greater desire. My circumstances, then, are of a piece with your purpose.”

Quote
“Now,” Cnaiür said, “your purpose . . . And don’t think I’m deluded into believing I’ve broken you. Your kind is not to be broken.”
There was a rustle in the blackness. “You’re right.” The voice was warm in the dark. “For my kind there’s only mission. I’ve come for my father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I’ve come to kill him.”
Silence, save for a gentle southern wind.
The outlander continued: “Now the dilemma is wholly yours, Scylvendi. Our missions would seem to be the same. I know where and, more important, how to find Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I offer you the very cup you desire. Is it poison or no?”
Dare he use the son?
“It’s always poison,” Cnaiür grated, “when you thirst.”

Now, of course it is plausible that he is being vague to Leweth and is misleading himself initially about "living in his father's house" but by the same measure he basically realizes that he must play Cnaiür and so presents his mission as being one with the purpose he reads as Cnaiür's.

There is even a reading that you can make, where Kellhus is actually admitting to Cnaiür that he is playing him, yet calling his bluff basically, by saying, "how much is killing Moe worth to you?  Enough to allow yourself to be played?"

If you put an emphasis like this: "Our missions would seem to be the same" the case could be make that Kellhus is even telling Cnaiür that he has him at an advantage.

Again, hardly cut and dry, but to me, I think the assassination idea comes direct from reading Cnaiür and aligning himself with that goal, in order to coerce Cnaiür's cooperation.

It's only well later that he realizes that he has to kill Moe for real, the the grasping of TTT.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2016, 03:27:55 pm »
I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.

Quote
Shimeh will be my home. I shall dwell in my father’s house.

Quote
“I search for my father, Moënghus,” Kellhus said. “Anasûrimbor Moënghus.”

Quote
“I still live because my father passed through your lands in your youth and committed some crime for which you seek redress. I don’t think it possible for you to kill me, though this is your desire. You’re too intelligent to find satisfaction in substitutes. You understand the danger I represent, and yet you still hope to use me as the instrument of your greater desire. My circumstances, then, are of a piece with your purpose.”

Quote
“Now,” Cnaiür said, “your purpose . . . And don’t think I’m deluded into believing I’ve broken you. Your kind is not to be broken.”
There was a rustle in the blackness. “You’re right.” The voice was warm in the dark. “For my kind there’s only mission. I’ve come for my father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I’ve come to kill him.”
Silence, save for a gentle southern wind.
The outlander continued: “Now the dilemma is wholly yours, Scylvendi. Our missions would seem to be the same. I know where and, more important, how to find Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I offer you the very cup you desire. Is it poison or no?”
Dare he use the son?
“It’s always poison,” Cnaiür grated, “when you thirst.”

Now, of course it is plausible that he is being vague to Leweth and is misleading himself initially about "living in his father's house" but by the same measure he basically realizes that he must play Cnaiür and so presents his mission as being one with the purpose he reads as Cnaiür's.

There is even a reading that you can make, where Kellhus is actually admitting to Cnaiür that he is playing him, yet calling his bluff basically, by saying, "how much is killing Moe worth to you?  Enough to allow yourself to be played?"

If you put an emphasis like this: "Our missions would seem to be the same" the case could be make that Kellhus is even telling Cnaiür that he has him at an advantage.

Again, hardly cut and dry, but to me, I think the assassination idea comes direct from reading Cnaiür and aligning himself with that goal, in order to coerce Cnaiür's cooperation.

It's only well later that he realizes that he has to kill Moe for real, the the grasping of TTT.
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2016, 03:50:08 pm »
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.

I think both are fair readings.  The difference is that you are inclined to believe Kellhus, where I am disinclined to believe him at his word.  It's too convenient for me to believe him with Cnaiür here because even by his own admission he is playing him, leveraging Cnaiür's desire to find and kill Moe with his own need for Cnaiür's help.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 05:08:15 pm »
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.

I think both are fair readings.  The difference is that you are inclined to believe Kellhus, where I am disinclined to believe him at his word.  It's too convenient for me to believe him with Cnaiür here because even by his own admission he is playing him, leveraging Cnaiür's desire to find and kill Moe with his own need for Cnaiür's help.

Ha ha. Well I'm sure you're figured out that I am a skeptic ;)

I'm not relying entirely on what Kellhus says to Cnauir. I believe it is part of his internal thoughts later in the book. I could be wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2016, 05:40:16 pm »
Ha ha. Well I'm sure you're figured out that I am a skeptic ;)

I'm not relying entirely on what Kellhus says to Cnauir. I believe it is part of his internal thoughts later in the book. I could be wrong.

I am a skeptic too though, haha.  Very skeptical that Kellhus is anything less than the lesser of two evils.

Thing is, I am very skeptical that Kellhus began his journey with the sole intention of killing Moe.  All the internal thoughts of his that I can find are of him just figuring out what it is the Moe is teaching him with the journey, what Moe's plan is.

Not that is carries much weight, but in the "What Comes Before" secion of TWP, we have this quote:

Quote
Though his knowledge of the Dûnyain renders Cnaiür immune to direct manipulation, Kellhus quickly realizes he can turn the man’s thirst for vengeance to his advantage. Claiming to be an assassin sent to murder Moënghus, he asks the Scylvendi to join him on his quest. Overpowered by his hatred, Cnaiür reluctantly agrees, and the two men set out across the Jiünati Steppe.

Key there for me is the word "claiming."  He claims to be an assassin.  I think that initial encounter with Cnaiür is fret with truth.  But not the whole truth.  I think that while it is true that Kellhus may need to kill Moe and he knows that, I do not believe that he is operating under this as a certainty.  He gives Cnaiür lots of facts, many truths, but never the whole story in my opinion.  There is no better lie than an incomplete truth, as I see it.

In my mind, Kellhus was sent to Moe to find out what it is he plays at.  If that is a danger to the Dûnyain, then kill him.  If not, learn what he has learned.  I actually think there is more to it, that the higher-up Dûnyain know what is really going on, that this is fulfilment of what they have worked so long on, but that is baseless and just a hunch.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2016, 09:59:35 pm »
There is a quote from an interview about RSB needing to add a Kellhus POV, because all the test readers are rooting and believing in Kellhus. I find myself having to force myself to not buy what Kellhus is selling. I agree, I believe there is way more to Kellhus's story than what we hear about the Dunyain/Ishual. But, as H said, it's pure speculation.
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2016, 11:57:56 pm »
The Pragma sent him to kill Moenghus for sure

Quote
  “It’s not in your interest to deceive me.” A stone-faced pause. “Unless …”
  “Unless,” Kellhus said, “I’ve come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed … Is this your apprehension?”

Quote
  Though battle stress and the absence of eyes complicated his reading, Kellhus could see the man spoke sincerely. But why, after summoning him from so far, would his father now leave him in the dark?
  He knows the Pragma have sent me as an assassin … He needs to be certain of me first.

But is that what he intended? As pointed out, he only resolves to find his father and learn what he intends. The Dunyain war for circumstance - even against each other. Which is what makes me curious whether Kellhus seeks to liberate himself from The Thousandfold Thought.

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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 10:22:30 am »
I don't doubt that the Pragma told him he might need to kill his father.  That's just logical.  I just don't buy that, setting out from Ishual, Kellhus definitely planned on killing him.  It was a possibility, but not his definitive motive or plan.

I feel that he was only sure that it was necessary after the Circumflix, after grasping the Thousandfold Thought and finally after the incident with the leaf on the way to Kyudea.  For all we know the Pragma could have been in on Moe's TT really; we've speculated before how the Pragma that received the Dreams removed themselves and the way that it is possible that this was because they knew they had to in order to deceive Kellhus about the "mission."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 04:21:40 pm »
I don't doubt that the Pragma told him he might need to kill his father.  That's just logical.  I just don't buy that, setting out from Ishual, Kellhus definitely planned on killing him.  It was a possibility, but not his definitive motive or plan.

I feel that he was only sure that it was necessary after the Circumflix, after grasping the Thousandfold Thought and finally after the incident with the leaf on the way to Kyudea.  For all we know the Pragma could have been in on Moe's TT really; we've speculated before how the Pragma that received the Dreams removed themselves and the way that it is possible that this was because they knew they had to in order to deceive Kellhus about the "mission."
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 05:55:22 pm »
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.

Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.

First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual.  He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die.  We really have no idea if they do or not.

Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point.  So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him.  That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow.  That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas?  Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.

Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks?  We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son."  Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked?  Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...

Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain?  The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.

Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place?  Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual.  And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him?  Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?

That's all I could think of at the moment.  To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 07:23:53 pm »
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.

Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.

First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual.  He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die.  We really have no idea if they do or not.

Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point.  So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him.  That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow.  That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas?  Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.

Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks?  We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son."  Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked?  Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...

Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain?  The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.

Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place?  Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual.  And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him?  Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?

That's all I could think of at the moment.  To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.

You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 07:50:45 pm »
You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D

Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too.  Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away.  It could well be that it's exactly what it seems.  I have doubts though.

I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair.  But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.

The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani.  Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me.  It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind.  There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
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  • Kijneta
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  • Kellhus Apologist
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 07:58:03 pm »
You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D

Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too.  Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away.  It could well be that it's exactly what it seems.  I have doubts though.

I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair.  But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.

The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani.  Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me.  It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind.  There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
I agree. I have no explanation as to why Moe was sent away in lieu of committing suicide. So perhaps there is something there.

Dunyain, in Kuiniuric (sp) just means "truth" IIRC. Naming his followers Zaudunyani (truth seeker?) doesn't mean he's going around telling everyone exactly what the Dunyain are. It's just a word in a "dead" language. No one would have any reason to think that the Dunyain exist as a group super human logic monks just because Kell names his followers Zaudunyani.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.