The Slog WLW - Chapter 14 [Spoilers]

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Blackstone

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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2016, 04:12:52 pm »
Yes! That is definitely another conversation.

I see what you're saying. But the sticking point for me, the reason I don't think you can say the TTT is a lie, is that it doesn't matter if he uses lies and manipulation to fulfill his mission. The lying is just a tactic used in the conflict. If the end goal of the TTT is a true end goal, then the TTT isn't a lie, it's a truth that uses everything at its disposal to come to fruition.

Well, the thing for me is that Kellhus frames the Ordeal as a way to avert the Second Apocalypse, even though I can't recall him ever saying it.  But people are sure assuming and acting on the assumption that it is.  While I have zero doubt that Kellhus wants the Consult defeat and is actually trying to do so, I still don't buy that he is a savior of the world.  I think he is just a new yoke, not necessarily a better one.

While the Consult is certainly not good for the world, I can't say I am buying Kellhus as being good for Earwa.

I'm definitely biased though.  I've had a hunch that Kellhus is not a savior basically since reading TWP the first time.  So, in the 11 years since then, I've been pretty stubborn on the hunch.  But a hunch is remains, because the text is purposely ambiguous on it...
I've been giving this some thought, and here's what I came up with: just because Kellhus is lying to everyone doesn't make the TTT a lie. For him, the TTT may be to join the consult or to become a god, or to save the world. Regardless of what the TTT is, we can't say if it's a lie or not, because we don't know what it is. As you say, it is all assumption on the part of everyone else. The TTT stands outside of Kell's interaction with other people. It can only be a lie if the TTT were implanted in his head by an outside entity with the intent of deceiving the beholder. Does that make sense?

But yeah, I am not so sure what his motivations are. I hope he really is trying to save mankind (though I think he fails), because I actually like Kellhus.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Bolivar

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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 05:45:38 pm »
This sold me on the secret voice debate:

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And they cried together, the two brothers, shuddering within the cage of the same small boy.

As far as Kellhus' secret words that no one could hear, I think this hints at the way Kellhus may have conditioned Kelmomas to do the things he's done in  his father's absence. And that Kellhus really wanted him to kill, especially the murders of the Yatwer delegation. Maybe he is actively goading the hundred to attack him, as part of his plan or maybe if he enters the carapace? I don't know but if this is the case, I feel we should have had more hints of Kellhus influencing him.

I also thought it was weird because an earlier passage makes it seem like Kellhus has never paid any real attention to him:

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As things stood, it was only a matter of time. He would grow as his brothers and sisters had grown, and he would drift, as his brothers and sisters had drifted, from Mother’s loving tutelage to Father’s harsh discipline. And one day Father would peer deep into his eye and see what no one else had seen. And that day, Kelmomas knew, would be his doom …

To chime in on Kellhus' intentions and TTT, Kelmomas is actually some good foreshadowing on this. Moenghus explained TTT constitutes several things - one of which is a "lie" to rewire Three Seas society, while they claim it is also the plan to avert the Second Alocalypse. Some of us also think it's the means by which the Dunyain will achieve the Absolute.

Kelmomas and Inrilatas discuss that the real way to become an unbound soul is by doing really terrible shit to people. It's a perversion of the Christian ideal of helping others without the expectation of anything in return - it's committing atrocity knowing full well of the damnation that awaits. Kelmomas admits to his brother that he would stack suffering to the sky if he were given the chance.

Throughout WLW, we learn through the Skin Eaters and Esmenet that Kellhus has ordered some really horrible things during the Unification Wars. Maithanet says there are good Dunyain and bad Dunyain but I think the distinction is actually successful Dunyain and defectives. Either way the result is still the same - they are amoral entities that cause tremendous suffering around them. Think about all of the warfare, pollution, and suffering that occurred as a result of globalization during the Cold War. While I don't think politicians are necessarily evil, they are no less blameless for immense suffering that has occured. I wouldn't be surprised if when the Judging Eye opens on Kellhus, he is the most charred and damned soul Mimara has ever seen.

Similarly, I don't think Moenghus was evil but Kellhus remarked and confirmed in his thoughts to himself that when Moe learns of the damnation that awaits, he would war as the Inchoroi have across the ages.

Tl;dr - if Kellhus doesn't intend to carry out a Consult-style apocalypse, he probably has a lot of reasons to want to. Or maybe, more likely, Kelmomas is being set up as the villain who will try it in the third series.

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 06:32:00 pm »
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I wouldn't be surprised if when the Judging Eye opens on Kellhus, he is the most charred and damned soul Mimara has ever seen.

I think this is forgone conclusion. While I believe he might have some shred of honest intentions, there is absolutely no question in my mind he is damned. Maybe sorcerers truly are not damned, I don't know. But, Kellhus never rewrote that law with the God's authority on Earwa. He just told them what they wanted to hear. His MURDER alone is enough to heap damnation on him.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 06:37:00 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,