[TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus

  • 66 Replies
  • 13331 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« on: May 12, 2016, 03:15:34 pm »
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:47:07 pm by Madness »
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

MG

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 1986
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 03:24:27 pm »
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!

btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 03:30:16 pm »
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!


btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!
[/quote]

This was so f'ing awesome.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

MG

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 1986
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 03:31:00 pm »
hey, when the Kelmomian Prophecy vision happened--did Gilgaol have a crown of 4 horns--like Ajokli?

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2211
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 03:39:14 pm »
hey, when the Kelmomian Prophecy vision happened--did Gilgaol have a crown of 4 horns--like Ajokli?

Just reread this, yes, he is described as having 4 horns.  But it seems he was described as having horns before, just never how many...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MG

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 1986
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 04:51:26 pm »
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 08:22:08 pm »
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5189
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2016, 02:09:46 pm »
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!

btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!

This was so f'ing awesome.

Yes! So much awesome.

Otherwise, no formulated thoughts for this topic yet - I can continue my previous conjecture unchanged that I think that Kellhus wants to understand and wield the Tekne.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5437
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 03:54:16 am »
What is Kellhus's intention?

The maddening possibilities... The study deepens.
 Here's my first pass:
Leaving The Great Ordeal must have always been a plan. He was grooming Proyas for that roll since WLW or sooner.
From that, I think returning to Momemn was always in the plan, though I didn't see that coming at all.
If Momemn, then I believe he planned the death of Maithanet. He had to give Yatwer and the White-Luck something. A trade of 'queens' maybe? Maitha for WL. Or, an inevitable gambit he could not surmount until he could have Kelmomas interrupt WLWs not-so-white-luck.
In addition, if saving The Empire was his plan, then he planned to force Zeum into the fray. If Fanayal had won, I'm guessing Zeum would see Kellhus as False and not help TGO.
So, if defeating Fanayal, then bringing Zeum. Since there might be doubts still, he'll murder the King and scare the rest into capitulating.

I'm thinking he plans to destroy the Consult still. He must appear at Golgotterath or otherwise meet with Akka so he can kneel. The why escapes me though.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...
History repeating seems a theme, so Kellhus looking for his son seems reasonable... Except that he could have just grabbed him himself on his way to Golgotterath with TGO. "Hey guys I'll be back tomorrow, I need to go see someone real quick".

On that note, it seems the Anasurimbor line continues to excel. Koringhus' intellect, according to him, baffled the elders. A couple more generations and they might have been unassailable - even as Kellhus and his might may be floundering(?). Too bad the Consult found them first.

Though maybe he needed not his son, but an army of Dunyain, or his whole line. Something that he didn't have time to sit around and spend days convincing the Dunyain to help. Something that Akka would have been able to deal with. I'm not really sure.

What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.

I hope to be guessing till the end :). Kellhus' madness, and his change from absolute certainty to confusion is quite staggering. Love it.

Maybe for a different thread, but the Nature of good/evil are grey to me, even as they are clearly defined.
Like the difference between morality and ethics.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5189
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 06:19:02 pm »
Or, an inevitable gambit he could not surmount until he could have Kelmomas interrupt WLWs not-so-white-luck.

No-So-White-Luck. Lol.

In addition, if saving The Empire was his plan, then he planned to force Zeum into the fray. If Fanayal had won, I'm guessing Zeum would see Kellhus as False and not help TGO.
So, if defeating Fanayal, then bringing Zeum. Since there might be doubts still, he'll murder the King and scare the rest into capitulating.

Well, Zsoronga will be Satakhan for a bit - regardless that he'll probably only find out when he's murdered by Ciphrang-Malowebi like H or MG brought up in another thread.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...

History repeating seems a theme, so Kellhus looking for his son seems reasonable... Except that he could have just grabbed him himself on his way to Golgotterath with TGO. "Hey guys I'll be back tomorrow, I need to go see someone real quick".

On that note, it seems the Anasurimbor line continues to excel. Koringhus' intellect, according to him, baffled the elders. A couple more generations and they might have been unassailable - even as Kellhus and his might may be floundering(?). Too bad the Consult found them first.

Though maybe he needed not his son, but an army of Dunyain, or his whole line. Something that he didn't have time to sit around and spend days convincing the Dunyain to help. Something that Akka would have been able to deal with. I'm not really sure.

Indeed. I had the thought when we were recording TTT Reread Cast. It seemed particularly compelling at the time that Kellhus needed more Dunyain to succeed... at whatever it is he's trying to succeed at.

What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.

I hope to be guessing till the end :). Kellhus' madness, and his change from absolute certainty to confusion is quite staggering. Love it.

+1 Wilshire.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2211
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 11:43:35 am »
Another "telling" part is how Kyutas tells us that Theli (oh, poor Theli) figures out that they can't figure out Kellhus because he is no one, that "There is no such man as Kellhus ... No such Prophet.  Only an intricate web of deceptions and stratagems .. bound by one inexorable-and as you know, quite ruthless-principle."

This jives well with Kellhus' own estimation of himself, as "the Place, the point of maximal convergance."

The question of course is, what really is The Mission?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2211
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 02:40:03 pm »
The question of course is, what really is The Mission?

Yeah, I am going to quote myself, that's where I am at.

I just had a thought.  If we take Kellhus at his word, that he is not working with the Consult (and I don't think he is) and not trying to bring about the No-God, then what is he after?

What if he is after the Absolute as a way to achieve Godhood and therefor redo the system?  No long will the Gods get to feast on Damnation, but perhaps he will remake it so they feast on Salvation?  Or, as the Absolute, essentially banish all the other demons of the Outside?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 04:07:24 pm »
The question of course is, what really is The Mission?

Yeah, I am going to quote myself, that's where I am at.

I just had a thought.  If we take Kellhus at his word, that he is not working with the Consult (and I don't think he is) and not trying to bring about the No-God, then what is he after?

What if he is after the Absolute as a way to achieve Godhood and therefor redo the system?  No long will the Gods get to feast on Damnation, but perhaps he will remake it so they feast on Salvation?  Or, as the Absolute, essentially banish all the other demons of the Outside?

This is kind of what I am leaning towards. I think he kind of sets that up with poor old Proyas when he tells him that goods thrive on their damnation and not their salvation.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2211
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 04:12:42 pm »
This is kind of what I am leaning towards. I think he kind of sets that up with poor old Proyas when he tells him that goods thrive on their damnation and not their salvation.

And so the Consult needs to be eliminated, because if they ever did resurrect the No-God, that would put Kellhus on the wrong end of the stick.  Or he needs the Consult to get Damned before he rewrites to rules.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5437
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2016, 06:05:17 pm »
If nothing else they are too powerful an entity to just leave sitting around. What with the sogamat armor impervious to sorcery, and their millenia of schemes and limitless technology.
One of the other conditions of possibility.