[Walter]

I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

[Madness]

Lol - Griswold family vacation at its finest.

Indeed, still a long drive back too, haha.  I'd probably post a bit more but as you saw, messing with quotes is a hot mess from the phone.

Lol - no worries.

I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

Interesting take, Walter.

[Blackstone]

I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

That was what I thought until about two weeks after finishing TGO, so I see where you are coming from.

Aside: Did anyone read Roger Eichorn's review? He says the White Luck and Unerring Grace are the same thing...which I postulate on another thread.

[MSJ]

I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

That was what I thought until about two weeks after finishing TGO, so I see where you are coming from.

Aside: Did anyone read Roger Eichorn's review? He says the White Luck and Unerring Grace are the same thing...which I postulate on another thread.

Well, I'd say that you're right. Its essentially another way to say that by the Gods seeing all of time, they can place you where you need to be. I can't see how anyone cannot see the connection between Ajokli and Kelmommas. Its easy if it's in our world, but the Gods do exist in Earwa, and have a hand in the events unfolding now. They have a huge stake in the SA, it's their very existence. Kellhus is their end. They are moving pieces. I speculated before TGO this very thing, even that Akka is guided by Anagke.

ETA: I also was hesitant to believe the Gods had a hand in so much. But, the Celmommas dream with Gilgoal squashed those doubts. The Gods are very involved in the events of TAE.

[MSJ]

Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.

[Walter]

@Kelmo/Whiteluck

Like, I don't think he has anything to do with Ajokli.  He's just a dunyain murderer.  He buys into the Whiteluck's narindar disguise, and spends all of this time imagining him as the God of murder, but we've been inside of whiteluck's thoughts, and he belongs entirely to Yatwer.  What does Ajokli have to do with anything other than being Kelmo's obsession?  I mean, he's a shrewd child, but Kelmo doesn't have any whiteluck that we've ever seen.  He doesn't see infinite versions of himself, etc.

@Serwe:

I kind of think that she's the head on the pole behind him.  Like, the critical moment when Kellhus stopped being a dunyain and became whatever he is now was when he got circumfexed.  I think that was the first time he went Outside.  The daemons couldn't kill him because he had a breathing body.  He remembered that by remembering that Serwe was on the pole behind him.  This is the earlier time that the ciphrangs are talking about when he goes out the second time to get the daemons heads.  The 'head on a pole' thing is like a mnemonic device he uses to remind himself that he is alive, he can't be Damned yet, they can't get him.  It is leftover from his visions while hanging.

[MSJ]

Well, Ajokli doesn't use White-Luck so Kelmommas wouldn't have those same perspectives. When Kel talked to the Tudor he was told how Ajokli worked. How after offering a sacrifice (the beetle) Ajokli would grant Uneerring Grace. Then after granting his Grace he would then later on take what you hold dear, to your own demise. I postulated that what Kel came to hold dear was the Narinder, for killing Thelli and for going to kill Kellhus. And this is the reason that Ajokli stepped in and killed the Narinder. It was what Kel had come to hold dear. Now, it could have been that Esme was the one meant to be killed by the earthquake and the Narinder was just colloteral damage. I guess we'll find that out with TUC.

I like the idea that Serwe is the head on a pole. I've seen that tossed around before. Good stuff.

[MisterGuyMan]

Allow me to quote an earlier post of mine I made after reading TJE and I'll elaborate on it after:

The outside mirrors the mundane world on several levels. Akka observes that the differences between the Outside and the mundane world is a matter of degree and not actual substance. Even Moe and Kellhus, the first after decades of observation and the latter from firsthand study, observe that the outside is a glorified battlefield of warring factions.

Apparently your mundane life merely sets your position for the afterlife. Inithrism gives you a path to cozy up with a god of your choice in the hopes that they can protect you once your soul finds its way in the afterlife. This only applies, of course, to the compensatory gods. Gilgaol, the god of war, who is not a compensatory god would have otherwise taken the Captain under his protection. Zuem bypasses this by setting up ancestors together in similar groups that can watch for one another. Zuemi doesn't deny the existence of the Hundred, they just believe your own kin are more reliable allies in the Outside. This coincides with Kellhus' observation that the Outside is nothing more than innumerable factions warring amongst themselves.

By contrast the few that bruise themselves seem like they just mark themselves for any Ciphrang that is strong enough to claim them for an everlasting snack. This could explain why Cishaurim don't bruise. The Tusk specifically condemns sorcerers as an abomination. Fanism specifically exalts the Pshuke as being closer to the Solitary God.

After some contemplation here's my current theory. At one point one of the characters, I believe it was Kayutas, notes that the Great Ordeal is nothing more than a vehicle to transport the thousands of sorcerers. It's also noted that Topos are, quite literally, gates into Hell. The greater the Topos, the closer you are to the Outside. You're essentially in the Outside at that point on varying degrees. Kellhus' entire plan for the Ordeal is to take the entire expedition to the largest Topos in the world and... just stay there. At that point he'd have an actual army in the Outside backed a core of sorcerers in their thousands. Whatever Zauduyani survive would be able to help as well. We know that the Gods and Demons all value and collect human souls so they must have some purpose in the Outside. From there Kellhus builds strength by dominating the lower Ciphrang, recruiting tormented sorcerers' souls and begins building a mansion strong enough to eventually challenge the Hundred. Since it appears that the Hundred are just more powerful and more legitimate Ciphrang, the Dunyain axiom of dominating circumstance must extend logically to dominating the Hundred. Likely human souls, Nonmen souls, Ciphrang and even the gods are all essentially the same in the Outside.

I believe I'm still generally on the right track.  I always go back to the notion that the outside is fundamentally no different that the normal world.  The two worlds differ in degrees only.  One amendment to the theory is the how eating the Sranc is affecting the thoughts of TGO.  I believe this is intentional.  Kellhus is priming the Ordeal to think a certain way that is conducive to mastering the Gods in the Outside much the same way he was priming Proyas.  I suspect for Proyas this as to force him to accept that he will be literally required to murder or dominate the gods he loves so much.  For everyone else, a frenzied violent mindset seems to be what works in the Outside.  That's certainly how the Ciphrang and Gods seem to handle business.

To put it bluntly, if Souls are ,for lack of a better term, currency in the afterlife, then what's stopping Khellhus from storming in there with his own army of souls?  That's part and parcel of the Dunyain schtick.  All interaction are hammers to temper people into useful tools.  The Thousandfold Thought was described as a pattern repeating itself within a larger pattern and IIRC it was also identified as an Empire made as Kellhus' soul or something like that.  So these crazed Ordealmen are now primed to repeat the pattern that is Kellhus' sould in the outside.  Then the pattern that is the Ordealmen will force the other factions in the Outside to confirm to the same pattern.  In short, TTT is the pattern of Kellhus' soul forcing itself into a larger pattern or the Ordeal forcing itself into the pattern of the outside-- ie the unmoved soul ie The One God, the title for the next trilogy.

[SilentRoamer]

What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?

[MSJ]

What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?

Good question, SR. You know, sometimes it feels like Kellhus just says that kinda stuff to make people think him a God. Well, matter a fact, everyone does think him a God. Is he though? Or this just more of his manipulative bullshit? It all hinges on the haloes to me. What if it's not like Locke says, that he's god-entangled but that he's actually a God walking, part of the 100? It's so hard to parse truth from bullshit in this series, tbh.

[Wilshire]

What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?

Kellhus just says that kinda stuff to make people think him a God.

This ^

[Wic]

Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.

It makes sense if she is the goad to Kellhus' ultimate plans. If he broke on the Circumfix witnessing her death and damnation, and found it so utterly unacceptable that he decided at that moment that he would rewrite the very rules of salvation...

[MSJ]

Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.

It makes sense if she is the goad to Kellhus' ultimate plans. If he broke on the Circumfix witnessing her death and damnation, and found it so utterly unacceptable that he decided at that moment that he would rewrite the very rules of salvation...

I really like that Wic, Serwe is the goad that causes Kellhus to end damnation. He realizes how the world works, and how awful it is that a complete and utter innocent like Serwe is still damned. So, he wages war on the Gods and the Consult. So obvious. Yet, I needed you to point it out, lol.

[SilentRoamer]

Hey guys,

My view has always been that Serwe and the Circumfix broke Kellhus. The World Moved Kellhus, he went mad and became a Dunyain defective.

I'm not sue if Kellhus as we knew him from earlier PoV's would be recognisable anymore though.

Another question - how do you guys see the scene where Kellhus tells the Ordeal to flee? Do you see this as humanity coming through or something more sinister?

[MisterGuyMan]

Would anyone mind giving the exact quote that Serwe is, in her way, the most important character in the series?  Pretty please.

Thanks.