[TGO Spoilers] Why did he return?

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MSJ

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« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2016, 04:51:44 pm »
Quick aside, how do they define madness? Believing in their own power-trips? Turning into a normie?

I'd say madness to a Dűnyain is simply allowing themselves emotions. That means they are letting the darkness that comes before have an effect on them. They are trained to stamp out those emotions.

As far as Kellhus being tired, sure he gets tired. But, in TDTCB when he nearly dies it is because he has no food, is overwhelmed by everything, and exposure. That's not something TGO Kellhus would allow, he controls circumstance. It is said somewhere when they explain the Cant of Translocation, you can go as far as you can see, or to a place you have been before and you know. Hence, Kellhus jumping from the Ordeal to Momemn, is one jump. He knows Momemn, knows his destination. Weary, is not because he is tired, which he may well be, it's because all he is going through to accomplish his goals.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Yellow

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« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2016, 05:13:32 pm »
That's not quite right, though. He couldn't insta-jump straight back to Momemn in TJE, it took numerous trips.

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MSJ

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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2016, 05:15:26 pm »
I swore that it was said somewhere in the books the the Can't could take you to a specific spot if you knew the place. I tried finding that quote and couldn't. But, this when Serwa explains it to Sorweel, shows the immense difference in power between her and her father. I will see if I can find the other quote also, though I may be confusing it with the Cant of Calling.

Quote
The Cant of Translocation, she went on to explain, could take them only the space of horizon, less if her vision were obscured. The Cant’s difficulty was such that she could successfully hold its meaning only after at least two watches of sleep. She was lucky, she said, if she could complete two Translocations a day, unlike her divine father, who could cross endless leagues in that time, stepping from horizon to horizon.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2016, 06:46:47 pm »
I don't remember much madness, aside from Kellhus taking a few un-Dunyain moral stances at the end of PoN. The Survivor made some declarations of madness, but if you can call yourself mad, you're still on the sanity spectrum in my book. In my viewpoints big K and Survivor were textbook Dunyain. Taking control of their circumstances in pursuit of the Absolute, albeit following different paths. It's why I have a hard time subscribing to Kellhus cares theory. The Survivor is there as a showcase of the correct path, love and all that jazz. Kellhus on the other hand is going to pull a Kirk style Kobayashi Maru escapade I think.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2016, 07:00:16 pm »
I dunno, there was bizarre compulsive behavior from Koringhus like the thing with the birds (and he doesn't feel sane in general, inside his PoV). Kellhus does and experiences plenty of stuff anyone that hasn't read the book (and so risks deciding Kellhus is divine) would consider insane. Although why they should be mutually exclusive when most of the few sources we have on the outside show that it is insane, I do not know. The Dunyain probably have many categories of broken if their inbreeding depression is severe as speculated by some.

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2016, 07:14:28 pm »
There is a certain book series, that I'll leave nameless so I can talk about it without spoilers, that a group of people are told they are special. So special, in fact, that they can speak to Gods, but to do so they are compulsed (by said Gods) to perform certain rituals.

Well, it turns out that those people just have plain old Schizophrenia with the added bonus of OCD. It was a government conspiracy/experiment/etc.


It would be amusing if something along those lines was true with the Dunyain/Earwa. Certainly not everything, but some 'phenomenon' might just be explained by similar effects: the Dunyain have several different interacting strains of mental psychosis, such as described above.

I swore that it was said somewhere in the books the the Can't could take you to a specific spot if you knew the place. I tried finding that quote and couldn't. But, this when Serwa explains it to Sorweel, shows the immense difference in power between her and her father. I will see if I can find the other quote also, though I may be confusing it with the Cant of Calling.

Quote
The Cant of Translocation, she went on to explain, could take them only the space of horizon, less if her vision were obscured. The Cant’s difficulty was such that she could successfully hold its meaning only after at least two watches of sleep. She was lucky, she said, if she could complete two Translocations a day, unlike her divine father, who could cross endless leagues in that time, stepping from horizon to horizon.


The quote in TTT from Kellhus limits the Translocation distance to 1 horizon, either by directly seeing it as per usual, or to a place that is well studied. I think of it as 'seeing' it in the mind's eye.

I think on a clear day a normal person can see 2 miles to the horizon? Maybe its 5 miles. Not super relevant because of the above quote - 'endless' is a pretty large number of jumps.

Also, for the sake of funs, the distance to the horizon is limited both by the curvature of the Earth and the atmosphere. At large enough distances the atmosphere just gets in the way of the light and you can't see any farther. But, wait, often Kellhus is seen translocating from way up in the air. Why might that be? As it turns out, there is less atmosphere getting in the way, and at enough height you can see more fully the curvature of the world. From a space station, you could make a complete circuit around the world in ~4 jumps.

Granted, there's no air in space(!), and for other obvious reasons (vaccum, temperature, radiation, etc.), he can't go that high up, but presumably, he could go pretty damn high, and lengthen the single horizon jump length to pretty extraordinary distances.


FYI, I subscribe to none of that, just an explanation for those that need reasons.
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themerchant

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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2016, 10:56:08 am »
Yeah i've always thought teleport up and as you fall just keep casting sideways.

He could have teleported that nuke really far away grab it teleport to the inchies spaceship dump it and teleport back. Saubon sees him porting and shouting all over the place then has a bit of scrap with sranc which lasts a while as he is described as getting more and more fatigued, then the nuke goes off.

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2016, 02:35:28 pm »
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
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themerchant

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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2016, 09:14:39 pm »
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.

I'm just finding the old cartoons where the wiley coyote makes a bomb for roadrunner and as he is covering his ears waiting for it to go off, the bomb gets dumped next to them.

MSJ

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« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2016, 01:16:24 am »
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.

Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2016, 02:55:35 am »
Are we sure there was a countdown? Haven't my book with me but I don't remember Saubon saying the text changed. I agree that Kellhus knew nothing of the nuke.

Raises more questions for me. Why did the consult pack the tunnels under dagliash with sranc in order to ambush Kelly if they intended to nuke them? Why did Aurang (Aurax?) show up at all? Why did he turn away - did he detect the nuke somehow? If Kellhus didn't know about the nuke why did he continue to pull crap out of the well when his goal was to block the sranc?

I had another few questions but I need sleep to remember them  :P
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themerchant

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« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2016, 10:16:30 am »
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.

Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.

or he sacrificed some of his army for all of the horde. He looks to have saved most of the Ordeal's arcane might.

It might not have been a time dependent decision. He might be doing the old "polish immortal" chess move.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/12/18/what_is_the_best_sacrifice_in_the_history_of_chess.html

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« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2016, 10:18:41 am »
I sticking with my theory, Kellhus' visions or the voice, or both, told him to go to Dagliash and to pull whatever was in there out of The Well.  It makes no real sense for him to have done that if he wasn't looking for something, right?  Otherwise, why bother?  He may not have known the full details, but he knew enough to have an idea what was generally going to happen.

Aurang's appearance is probably tied to the bomb coming out of The Well.  I think their plan was to use the Bashrags to draw the fighting down into Dagliash and so when the bomb exploded down the Well, there would be no escape, even those of the Few whose Wards would hold would fall down it just like Titirga.  Kellhus' excavation threw that whole plan in the trash.
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MSJ

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« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2016, 12:07:45 pm »
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.

Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.

or he sacrificed some of his army for all of the horde. He looks to have saved most of the Ordeal's arcane might.

It might not have been a time dependent decision. He might be doing the old "polish immortal" chess move.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/12/18/what_is_the_best_sacrifice_in_the_history_of_chess.html

Totally agree. That's apparent from his comment that it's a good thing. I was just addressing the post about him teleporting it away.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2016, 09:33:41 pm »
Are we sure there was a countdown? Haven't my book with me but I don't remember Saubon saying the text changed. I agree that Kellhus knew nothing of the nuke.

Raises more questions for me. Why did the consult pack the tunnels under dagliash with sranc in order to ambush Kelly if they intended to nuke them? Why did Aurang (Aurax?) show up at all? Why did he turn away - did he detect the nuke somehow? If Kellhus didn't know about the nuke why did he continue to pull crap out of the well when his goal was to block the sranc?

I had another few questions but I need sleep to remember them  :P
There was some scrolling text that could be interpreted as a countdown as I remember.

Dagliash was packed with Sranc and Bashrag because they needed to ensure the Ordeal was well engaged and unable to safely withdraw from the vicinity of it.

I believe Aurang showed up to get in range to remotely trigger the nuke then ran. But no way to know for sure.