[TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2016, 03:01:47 pm »
The bane of all rational agents, imperfect access to information. Which basically applies to all of our speculations as well :3

+1 8).

See, but then why wouldn't they find anyone across 2000 years with the Judging Eye? I mean there have been others, otherwise Akka wouldn't know of it. Who went into the original carapace (OC) in the first place? Nayu's wife? Now that I might be able to get behind. Maybe.

Well, Achamian, who has proven to always know more regarding any given subject than the reader, reflecting on things only when they become narrative context, suggested early in WLW that he only knew of rumours, innuendo, myth, legend, regarding the "Judging Eye." Apologies for not posting with the books at hand.
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themerchant

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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2016, 04:13:37 pm »
It might be perspective, when you're as long lived as the Consult. Soon is 20-30 years.

H

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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 04:17:11 pm »
Well, Achamian, who has proven to always know more regarding any given subject than the reader, reflecting on things only when they become narrative context, suggested early in WLW that he only knew of rumours, innuendo, myth, legend, regarding the "Judging Eye." Apologies for not posting with the books at hand.

I still feel pretty sure that the No-God is related to Shae's experiments in soul-trapping.  I don't think it has anything to do with the Judging Eye.  Sure, Akka knew of tJE, but he had no clue of it's relation to the Cubit.  Shae probably knows of tJE too, but again, has no inkling of it's real nature.  So far only Koringhus seems to have divined that information.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 02:42:54 am »
OK,  some thoughts from the Dagliash chapter and about the Nuke. I for one feel that Kellhus knew nothing  of the Nuke. Also,  he knew that Dagliash would be where the Consult would hatch a trap and it would be the most likely spot for their first confrontation.

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They will come,” Kellhus had warned. “They will not abandon such might as the Horde manifests to our design . The Unholy Consult will intervene. At long last, my brothers, you will vie with our foe in the flesh, grapple with the Cause that moves you."


As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

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One tomb plundered to fashion another. Shivers through oceanic stone. The slip of fractures as old as old. The spit of dust from the ceilings. Some halls collapsed, be they humble or majestic, rooves clapping down, pounding wails and velvet dust through all the forking, subterranean hollows. And the beasts beat their cheeks for the stinging of slovenly eyes. The mulish barks of the dying set them baying in their thousands, strung and clotted through the veined deep. Anguish and outrage popping through sputum. The bellowing of elephantine lungs. Where were the Old Fathers?


From the perspective of the Sranc/Bashrag in the well of Viri, clearly waiting on Aurang to show up as part of the plan.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2016, 03:56:55 am »
As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

Man, I don't know. I really don't trust Kellhus outside his own PoVs. He is what he needs to be. Maybe at that point it suited him to look amazed and confused. Oh look a thingamajig buried underground which God has shown me. Through my divinity I have surmised things are about to get hella more real. Run people, while I look all the more heroic floating above and yelling at you peons to run faster. Then God will thoroughly explain to me symptoms of radiation poisoning and I will tell you all about it because I care and will make Earwa great again. Vote Kellhus 4132! He will build a great wall around Golgoterrath and make the Inchoroi pay for it!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:58:50 am by JRControl »
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 04:02:15 am »
As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

Man, I don't know. I really don't trust Kellhus outside his own PoVs. He is what he needs to be. Maybe at that point it suited him to look amazed and confused. Oh look a thingamajig buried underground which God has shown me. Through my divinity I have surmised this things are about to get hella more real. Run people, while I look all the more heroic floating above and yelling at you peons to run faster. Then God will thoroughly explain to me symptoms of radiation poisoning and I will tell you all about it because I care and will make Earwa great again. Vote Kellhus 4132! He will build a great wall around Golgoterrath and make the Inchoroi pay for it!

Lol. Not a fan of Trump,  and certainly don't see the comparison. I just see it another way, I see no evidence at all that he know of the Nuke. If he can deduce what people are going to do and say by looking at their face, then surely the probability trance can deduce the radiation sickness.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2016, 04:16:42 am »
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Unless I missed something very obvious (I do get tunnel vision-y) I don't buy he could know there was something there, dig it out and know exactly what it was. Kellhus tells what people want to hear and twists or leverages that so they believe in him more. His honesty is his weapon and people just shrug away the rest because he is so clearly godlike in his showbusiness displays. Trump bit is just my bad joke about massive followings of strongmen who play to their audience perfectly.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 04:32:24 am »
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Unless I missed something very obvious (I do get tunnel vision-y) I don't buy he could know there was something there, dig it out and know exactly what it was. Kellhus tells what people want to hear and twists or leverages that so they believe in him more. His honesty is his weapon and people just shrug away the rest because he is so clearly godlike in his showbusiness displays. Trump bit is just my bad joke about massive followings of strongmen who play to their audience perfectly.

Wait. I think we're talking around each other here. I don't think Kellhus knew the Nuke was there. I think he was genuinely perplexed by the discovery and deduced what it was through the PT and told the Ordeal to flee. No acting, simply what happened.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2016, 04:52:06 am »
Am I misremembering? I binge-read TGO pretty late at night and tired so what I recall was that he used sorcery to excavate it out of the place/ground? Was it just lying there in plain sight? I'll admit my memory is very fuzzy on this and I often imagine things that didn't actually happen. I am still skeptical he could have figured all that out without outside information, otherwise Moenghus just looks like a big dumbass in comparison IMO.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2016, 05:05:57 am »
Am I misremembering? I binge-read TGO pretty late at night and tired so what I recall was that he used sorcery to excavate it out of the place/ground? Was it just lying there in plain sight? I'll admit my memory is very fuzzy on this and I often imagine things that didn't actually happen. I am still skeptical he could have figured all that out without outside information, otherwise Moenghus just looks like a big dumbass in comparison IMO.

No, the Nuke came out of Viri. Way I read it was he was doing his Meta thing making "new ground" to entrap the bashrag and shield from the chorae they had also. Hey, you could be right, he did know about it. Just not my opinion. Very few times, nah I can't recall a time we see Kellhus actually surprised, hesitant and he was both when the Nuke came up.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2016, 05:16:09 am »
Yeah, but this is a guy that is supposedly in absolute control of every remote facet of his body and emotions. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would show something outwardly just because. All his legions are assigned with purpose. Unless the madness has truly claimed him. (point for that, seemingly casual conversations with Malowebi and Splatma) The only time I can remember being surprised and out of control was when Aurang possessed Esmenet and used pheromones or something.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 05:40:02 am »
Yeah, but this is a guy that is supposedly in absolute control of every remote facet of his body and emotions. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would show something outwardly just because. All his legions are assigned with purpose. Unless the madness has truly claimed him. (point for that, seemingly casual conversations with Malowebi and Splatma) The only time I can remember being surprised and out of control was when Aurang possessed q. Esmenet and used pheromones or something.

Right, but that's why I think he didn't know about it because he was surprised. Same way that Thelli tells Kel she doesn't have emotions, yet he gets a reaction out of her. Kellhus, his kids, Koringhus,  or any of the Dűnyain for that matter, have not completely stamped out their humanity. It's there, hidden, and occasionally we catch glimpses of it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 02:43:46 pm »
As far as I feel compelled to comment on topic, and I think regurgitate many of my ARC discussion thoughts, I'd say that Kellhus didn't expect the Tekne artifact. Likewise, the Consult didn't expect that the Metagnosis would allow Kellhus to Sing away Dagliash and excavate the ruins of Nogaral from the Well of Viri. Probably the Consult hoped Kellhus and company would be beset at Dagliash long enough for the Tekne-Nuke to explode beneath ground and take them unawares, especially as a greater portion of the Ordeal would have been much closer to blast-radius (as the Ordeal's plan fixated on converging on Dagliash).

And as for Kellhus knowing what the "golden coffer" is going to do: all he has to do is recognize that there is a countdown and that he and anyone he still needs probably shouldn't be near it when it counts down (countdowns are bad, mmm'kay ;) ). After that, he can readily see what the consequences of the fallout are.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 02:46:30 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2016, 05:17:21 pm »
I agree, I don't think Kellhus knew of the Nuke. But I do think he expected to find *some* kind of deadly surprise at Dagliash - it was important enough for the Consult to be sure that they would have something nasty in store for the great ordeal.

As for Kellhus deducing the radiation risk... He probably has some limited knowledge of Tekne, and has deduced the basic laws of physics. He could probably use his Metagnosis to peer into the nuke and deduce how how it worked, and then go from there.

But I do really like that moment - one of the few times in the series where Kellhus is surprised and temporarily unsure of what to do, until he finishes his probability trance.

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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2016, 08:22:17 pm »
Probably the Consult hoped Kellhus and company would be beset at Dagliash long enough for the Tekne-Nuke to explode beneath ground and take them unawares, especially as a greater portion of the Ordeal would have been much closer to blast-radius (as the Ordeal's plan fixated on converging on Dagliash).

I'm not entirely convinced that the Consult even intended to destroy the Ordeal with the nuke (in fact if some of the theories on No-God resurrection being thrown around are somewhat true, destroying the Ordeal at Dagliash might have been the last thing the Consult wanted).  I think the main purpose of the nuke was to destroy the Horde (and thus the Ordeal food supply), since the Consult knew it had finally been gathered all around Dagliash.

Why the indirectness? I think the Consult idea is to have a half-starved and reduced Ordeal show up at Golgotterath and be easily defeated and wrangled into No-God 2.0, since the hints seem to point to the need for plenty of human fodder for that purpose.