[TGO Spoilers] Kellhus

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Cosi

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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 02:01:22 am »
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

Yeah. I'm actually a little confused about what purpose Momemn serves (both for Kellhus and in the story). As best as I can tell, the current function of the Empire is a way to bait the Gods into attacking Kellhus somewhere other than the Ordeal. Not sure why he's attacking Zeum though. Even if he can take control, what is he planning to do with it? It's not like he can get Zeumi troops or mages up to the Ordeal in time.

RedSetter4570

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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2016, 02:41:47 am »
Are the Zayumi the 144k souls (or the tribe of man who did not cross the mountains)? The Gods have been established as total d bags, and so far we have found what? Two people who are cool with the Gods?  Mimara and The Survivor (and Kellhus' reasons can't be seen to the Gods, or the reader).  Perhaps what Kellhus said was true, and the Gods do feed on damnation, so the Consult is evil, no doubt about that, but they work for good because the Gods are equally (or perhaps, more) evil.  Perhaps by bringing about the Apocalypse it actually is a work of salvation from such evil beings, and all those who are born into it.
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 03:07:17 am »
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

Yeah. I'm actually a little confused about what purpose Momemn serves (both for Kellhus and in the story). As best as I can tell, the current function of the Empire is a way to bait the Gods into attacking Kellhus somewhere other than the Ordeal. Not sure why he's attacking Zeum though. Even if he can take control, what is he planning to do with it? It's not like he can get Zeumi troops or mages up to the Ordeal in time.

I hesitate to comment on Kellhus' endgame - except for years, I've been harping that Kellhus should want the Tekne, if true mastery of all worldly conditions is still part of his Mission, whatever it may be.

BUT...

In the TGO ARC threads, and in our conversations over the past couple years, Somnambulist has pointed to the fact that the last mention of Meppa is from Malowebi's perspective before Kellhus cuts off his head and that Meppa is semi-conscious. Clearly, as Som has chastised me repeatedly, Kellhus has a role for the Last Cishaurim to play.

Not to mention, Whelmed-Kelmomas is almost certainly a gamble by Kellhus to conspire with Ajokli and diffusing one threat posed by Issiral/Yatwer isn't a bad reason to swing by town. Add in Ciphrang-Malowebi and whatever nefarious purpose he serves, Kellhus manages to tie up a couple bows while he just so happens to be there saving Esmenet.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 03:48:05 am »
Assuredly. Ignorant enemies are Khellus' best tools.

It's long been my contention that Kellhus is probably no longer an individual, rather an extension of the Thousandfold Thought. A speculation TGO feeds pretty hard.

Was nice to see my speculations on lil Kel and Ishterberinth confirmed. :D
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 03:07:13 pm »
At the same time, it's too much for me that Kellhus already knows about the effects of nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning mere moments after it goes off.

I thought so too at first, but anyone at all can tell that exposure to intense light and heat it harmful, all Kellhus has to do is grasp that the object is a weapon and that it is somehow based on the explosive emission of fire and the rest can be reasonably inferred. Also keep in mind that sorcery is apparently capable of generating lethal forms of light, so all Three Seas mages have some experience with directed energy as a weapon - radiation effect might not be too unknown. Bakker's only real mistake there is in giving a precise description of how the exposed will sicken, rather than a general decree that all who fall ill must be quarantined.
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if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

JRControl

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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2016, 03:32:36 am »
It makes much more sense to me that Kellhus either learned to read Inchoroi and found some cache of their knowledge or he made some kind of deal with the Consult, because I am not yet entirely clear on what Proyas is supposed to do with the remnants of the Ordeal.
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MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2016, 02:47:58 am »
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

I disagree. Kellhus has shown hints of emotion and he even said, "to salvage what he may." IMHO, Kellhus is looking to save humanity, from the Consult and the Gods/damnation. I don't believe he had any idea about the nuke, but I think it wasn't the reason for him going back to Momemn. I know that Kellhus is who he needs to be at whatever moment, and must because of what he has set out to accomplish. When he broke on the Circumfix, it was because of being face to face with a woman he cared deeply for and knowing he caused it. This "more" he says to Moe that he is, is he is more human/cares for humans. Pre TGO, everyone said that he would leave the. empire to ruin and pointed to his convo with Proyas as evidence. I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

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It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him. The World is a granary, Proyas … The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin. “And we are the bread.

His heart crash to ruin. Not what one would think from a Dunayin, no? Plenty of evidence stacking up for Kellhus's humanism and what that will foretell of his goals.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

RedSetter4570

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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2016, 04:37:36 am »
There is something different about Khellus in this book.  He has a genuine interest in his family and empire, he makes an effort to shield the Great Ordeal from the nuke and its effects, his desire for angry revenge toward Zeyeum, and his vulnerability to Saubon and Proyas in the matter of faith are downright human.  To not speak of other desires with the whole rape thing...

Oh wait, he is Dunyain.  He calculated everything out, including the madness that is going to effect the The Great Ordeal (sending an assassin to kill the leader of a country tends to have negative consequences, unless it's to mobilize an army to defend against a No God worshiping Sranc eaters, if his rape victim fails in bringing them to heel and destroying to Consult...correct me if I am wrong, Zayeum has the only school remaining in Earwa right?).  Not to mention his own madness from investing Sranc.  Cnaiur is the one wildcard, but not much of one, seeing as how Acca met up with him, which, judging by everything else Acca has done, was more or less preordained. 

I think we are seeing Khellus as he is seen by world born men: a sympathic character who reveals enough through his words and actions to win our trust.  He's a bigger monster than ever (then again, so are the gods).
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Titan

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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2016, 06:35:49 am »
I think we are seeing Khellus as he is seen by world born men: a sympathic character who reveals enough through his words and actions to win our trust.  He's a bigger monster than ever (then again, so are the gods).

Bingo. His POV sections are chilling. Yet I'm still rooting for him against the Consult and the Gods, what does that make me?   :-\

Viridius

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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2016, 11:21:58 am »
I'm in favour of an uneasy alliance between Kellhus & the Consult against the Gods. Or that the Consult are somehow part of a plan in the Thousand Fold Thought. Kill two birds with one stone.

I think that some kind of behind the scenes stuff has been going on between K & The Consult for some time. There's the famous scene with Esmenet-Aurang but there's also a moment towards the end of TTT. Achamian, just before Kellhus appears:

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"He saw nothing of Kellhus, though he spied something, a point of fluttering black, hanging over the distant network of streets and alleyways that rose up into the haze. He blinked, frowning... Was that the Mark he sensed? A sorcerous bird?"

IMHO they had been having one of their chats.

Do you think that he didn't notice his old sparring partner riding the thermals high above Dagliash?

The Thousand Fold Thought spans the continent including both the empire & the GO as well as something dodgy going on in Zeum. It's as if he's stirring up total chaos. (Ulp. Has he gone over? "He went mad." Is he laying the ground for the killing blow? The arrival of the No-God & no mistakes this time?)

Did he go back to Momemn (a choice I still find puzzling if his main goal was the success of the GO) to make sure that things were coming to a head there? Got to get your timing right! Maybe it was even wilder than he had imagined. & Esmi is covered in her daughter's blood, he says:"What have you done?" Know-it-all Kellhus is surprised & uncertain? Or is that just another manipulative response to Esmi in order to take control of the situation?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 11:23:36 am by Viridius »
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Titan

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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2016, 05:26:28 pm »
Viridius,
I get the impression that Kellhus thinks that the Gods are the greater evil... He is fighting the Consult, but as a way to stab at a the gods, if that makes sense.

Did he go back to Momemn (a choice I still find puzzling if his main goal was the success of the GO) to make sure that things were coming to a head there? Got to get your timing right! Maybe it was even wilder than he had imagined. & Esmi is covered in her daughter's blood, he says:"What have you done?" Know-it-all Kellhus is surprised & uncertain? Or is that just another manipulative response to Esmi in order to take control of the situation?

I think Kellhus left the GO on purpose - the new "shortest path" after the nuke - but I expect him to return to it shortly. Perhaps the GO reaching Golgotterath without him is what will help kill the faith in him and thus the gods.

I guess my point is that the important part in in plan was to temporarily leave the GO. So once he left the GO, he might as well go to Monemn. Where else? :-)

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2016, 09:45:48 pm »
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

MSJ

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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2016, 11:30:07 pm »
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.

There is a lot he didn't know about when he came back. I don't see how any of that would be affected his decision to come back.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2016, 11:45:54 pm »
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Titan

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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2016, 12:16:57 am »
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

You should be. Unless you are reading things from HIS point of view, EVERYTHING he says is only done to create the outcome "that place that was Kellhus" desires. It might be lies or truth, but it is all manipulation.