[TGO Spoilers] Kellhus

  • 56 Replies
  • 8535 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2016, 12:55:06 pm »
Not to derail the current conversation, but I had a random though about why Kellhus so easily took to the Meta-Gnosis and (comparatively) effortlessly can wield it.

The idea came from thinking about all the "voices" that Koringhus "hears" and how, if Kellhus is the same way (and I think he is) how that could easily allowing him to have several inutterals perhaps even more than two.

I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

Indeed.  He might actually care, but he knows he can't let it determine what he has to do.  Interestingly enough, Koringhus is "afflicted" with caring as well, illustrated by his own questioning why he bothered to save his defective son.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

EkyannusIII

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 140
  • Archduke Ekyannus of Shitlord Hall
    • View Profile
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2016, 06:12:32 pm »
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

He says that to Proyas.

Note that the quote, juxtaposed to his supposed revelations to Proyas in TGO, serve the imply that Kellhus, loving nothing, is like the God, also loving nothing.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

EkyannusIII

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 140
  • Archduke Ekyannus of Shitlord Hall
    • View Profile
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2016, 06:17:25 pm »
Not to derail the current conversation, but I had a random though about why Kellhus so easily took to the Meta-Gnosis and (comparatively) effortlessly can wield it.

The idea came from thinking about all the "voices" that Koringhus "hears" and how, if Kellhus is the same way (and I think he is) how that could easily allowing him to have several inutterals perhaps even more than two.

He discusses that with Akka in TTT:

Quote
Following a fleet survey of the Theses, Achamian moved on to the Persemiota, the meaning-fixing meditative techniques that Mandate Schoolmen, thanks to the Seswathan homunculus within them, largely ignored. Then he delved into the technical depths of the Semansis Dualis, the very doorstep of what had been, until the coming of the man who sat before him, a final precursor to damnation.

He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, which always remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken. Since any single meaning could be skewed by the vagaries of circumstance, Cants required a second, simultaneous meaning, which, though as vulnerable to distortion as the first, braced it nonetheless, even as it too was braced. As Outhrata, the great Kûniüric metaphysician, had put it, language required two wings to fly.

“So the inutterals serve to fix the utterals,” Kellhus said, “the way the words of one man might secure the words of another.”

“Precisely,” Achamian replied. “One must think and say two different things at once. This is the greatest challenge—even more so than the mnemonics. The thing that requires the most practice to master.”

Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.”

“There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”

Kellhus nodded. “Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?”

Achamian swallowed. “What do you mean?”

By some coincidence two of the hanging lanterns guttered at the same time, drawing Achamian’s eyes upward. They instantly resumed their soundless illumination.

“Has anyone devised Cants consisting of two inutteral strings?”

The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

EkyannusIII

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 140
  • Archduke Ekyannus of Shitlord Hall
    • View Profile
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2016, 06:18:35 pm »
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.

There is a lot he didn't know about when he came back. I don't see how any of that would be affected his decision to come back.

I'm simply stating that the death of Maithanet will be an unwelcome surprise.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2016, 01:50:47 am »
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

He says that to Proyas.

Note that the quote, juxtaposed to his supposed revelations to Proyas in TGO, serve the imply that Kellhus, loving nothing, is like the God, also loving nothing.

Double-checked and you're right. I think Kellhus is trying to scrape his way past his madness and become God whereas Koringhus decided to return to stack as it were. The whole cooperate or defect dilemma with a couple of million souls at stake.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 03:42:41 am by JRControl »
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2016, 03:19:15 am »
Lol, think how easily Kellhus knew Akka lied right there.

Viridius

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2016, 08:03:34 am »
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

You should be. Unless you are reading things from HIS point of view, EVERYTHING he says is only done to create the outcome "that place that was Kellhus" desires. It might be lies or truth, but it is all manipulation.

With you there Titan. it looked to me as if K was grooming Proyas to lead the GO. So he knew that he'd be elsewhere & that Saubon wouldn't be around. Does that mean that he knew about the nuke when the raft landed?

If a Benjuka board is like Go, sometimes you restart activity elsewhere & back off from the area where it's been getting hot. Hmm, good time to pop back to Momemn to see what's going on there. Things are falling apart, no surprise, but maybe faster or more profoundly than expected. WTF has been going on? Have a chat with Esmi. Take the upper hand. "What have you done?" is a way of manipulating her.  She's already in a state; push her further to get straight to the point. He might be powerful but he's not omniscient, he needs information & fast.

Interestingl that he turned up at Fanayal's tent first.
“Answers are a perilous grip on the universe. They can appear sensible yet explain nothing.”

-- The Zensunni Whip

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2016, 01:52:12 pm »
With you there Titan. it looked to me as if K was grooming Proyas to lead the GO. So he knew that he'd be elsewhere & that Saubon wouldn't be around. Does that mean that he knew about the nuke when the raft landed?

If a Benjuka board is like Go, sometimes you restart activity elsewhere & back off from the area where it's been getting hot. Hmm, good time to pop back to Momemn to see what's going on there. Things are falling apart, no surprise, but maybe faster or more profoundly than expected. WTF has been going on? Have a chat with Esmi. Take the upper hand. "What have you done?" is a way of manipulating her.  She's already in a state; push her further to get straight to the point. He might be powerful but he's not omniscient, he needs information & fast.

Interestingl that he turned up at Fanayal's tent first.

I'm sorry, but your contradicting yourself here, along with everyone else. We can't say that Kellhus was prepping Proyas because he knew he'd be somewhere else, then say that Kellhus made the decision to go back to Momemn only after the Nuke. That he suddenly reassessed the situation and suddenly needed all the info he could gather. Why would be he have prepped Proyas then?

No, Kellhus always knew he was going back to save the Empire. Because, he knew all he had to do was kill Fayanal to save the Empire. Kellhus goal (IMHO) is to defeat the Consult and  And damnation (shut the Outside, Kill the 100). Only, he wants to leave something for those who survive to come back to. Some order. He has a different way of accomplishing this other than the Consults way of reducing the population to 144,000. Everyone forgets, but there are several mentions throughout TAE how certain people and places of the Great Ordeal later become HOLY. So, to me, this is a clue that whatever comes about will become HOLY and civilization does continue on. KELLHUS WAS ALWAYS GOING BACK TO MOMEMN.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2016, 02:11:37 pm »
Indeed, I think that was always part of the plan, the going back.

I have a feeling that part of it was to draw out whatever Yatwer had planned.  If he had been there more constantly, he wouldn't have known what Esmenet would have done and, indeed, did do.  She would have been constantly under Kellhus' thumb.  Kelmomas would also have been more circumspect and wouldn't have revealed himself (or Ajolki).

There has always been something of a question in my mind about why he even let Fanayal live for any amount of time.  I think the answer came in those last two tent scenes.  He was drawing him out along with Malowebi and of course Meppa.  Consider if he had simply murdered Fanayal however many years ago.  It would simply be someone else there attacking, so it makes no difference.  Why allow them to attack?  Because all those Fanim warriors need to see that even with a god's help, they can't win.

I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

The qeuestion I don't really have an answer for is why does he need Proyas to "do what no believer could do?"  All I can think of is that he will renounce Kellhus, but I don't understand why that helps him.  Or is it that he wants him to do everything believing that Kellhus has really forsaken him.  In other words, not rely on him?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 03:22:24 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

spacemost

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2016, 02:27:03 pm »
The qeuestion I don't really have an answer for is why does he need Proyas to "do what no believer could do?"  All I can think of is that he will renounce Kellhus, but I don't understand why that helps him.  Or is it that he wants him to do everything believing that Kellhus has really forsaken him.  In other words, no rely on him?
I read it as relating back to Chapter 4 and what Proyas believed about Kellhus, prophets, the gods, etc before Kellhus pulled the rug from under him. He needs someone who will make the right decisions, not the dogmatic "What Would (my fantasy of) Kellhus Do?" decisions. I think Kellhus knows things are about to get really really squirrely as they approach Golgotterath and he needs someone who will follow orders even if their faith is shaken.

As a side note, I realized just now that the reason "love" is so alien to the One God is because it's a measure of the distance between two people and therefore outside the Absolute.

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2016, 03:07:43 pm »
It's either that, there are tough choices to be made, that moral believers could never bring themselves to do, which in my mind doesn't really sit right considering they've been burning nations for 20 odd years and now have been eating the Meat for quite some time. My guess is, Kellhus will save Proyas for reasons and Proyas will either lead the GO against ALL nations or lead the GO to the Consult to sacrifice them and bring back the NG. (souled people are needed for the resurrection)
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2016, 03:49:58 pm »
It's either that, there are tough choices to be made, that moral believers could never bring themselves to do, which in my mind doesn't really sit right considering they've been burning nations for 20 odd years and now have been eating the Meat for quite some time. My guess is, Kellhus will save Proyas for reasons and Proyas will either lead the GO against ALL nations or lead the GO to the Consult to sacrifice them and bring back the NG. (souled people are needed for the resurrection)

I'm curious where do you get that souls are needed for the No-God to be resurrected? I also thought you have said before that it's specifically 144,000 souls needed. Well that's the number the Consult need to reduce Earwa's population to to shut the Outside. I'm just curious, you could very well be right, just never seen anything in the text that corroborates it though.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

spacemost

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2016, 03:57:56 pm »
Achamian had that dream (or dreams) where people were being marched into what is presumably the NG sarcophagus.

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2016, 03:59:31 pm »
I don't think I said the 144k part, though it would mesh thematically somewhat. The souled people bit I go from what we've seen of Akka's dreams and the fact if they didn't need them they would have brought NG back ASAP right? So either he's gonna sacrifice GO to the Consult (not everyone can be saved) or he destroyed the Horde and drove GO to the brink of sanity so Kellhus himself could lead the Purge in order to maintain some leverage over the Consult cause obviously you can't trust people whose jimmies have been rustled for countless millennia. I'm sure there are pieces I overlooked and these are rough sketches.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 04:03:18 pm by JRControl »
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2016, 04:11:36 pm »
Ahhhh, yes, ok I gotcha.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,