[TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus

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JRControl

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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2016, 01:33:45 am »
Is there a reason I have forgotten why Nonmen didn't at least try to spawn a race of Men-Nonmen Hybrids after the Womb-Plague?
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Cosi

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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 01:52:52 am »
It was revealed, I think in WLW, that they did. But Nonmen babies are even harder on human women than Dunyain babies, and none came to term. Although I have heard some people speculate about Nonmen blood somewhere in Kellhus's line, so there may be something I missed.

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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2016, 03:53:40 pm »
Any thoughts on Koringhus' reference to fractions of his soul and Nil'Giccas\Incariol\Cleric's battle\attempt to Become at the end of WLW?

The Internet way back machine points to Dunyain and Nonmen and Seswatha's Elju(s)

Lol - one of those is me; the other is you ;)?!

...the first two books (Hyperion + Fall of Hyperion) are heads and shoulders above the latter two, and can be viewed as their own work if you prefer.

But yes, hopefully Bakker doesn't head in that direction.

This

As far as I recall, H/FOH got a lot a love around here.

EDIT:

Is there a reason I have forgotten why Nonmen didn't at least try to spawn a race of Men-Nonmen Hybrids after the Womb-Plague?

It was revealed, I think in WLW, that they did. But Nonmen babies are even harder on human women than Dunyain babies, and none came to term. Although I have heard some people speculate about Nonmen blood somewhere in Kellhus's line, so there may be something I missed.

Probably attrition and contempt. The Tutelage ends with the "Rape of Omindalea," whose offspring leads to the Anasurimbor Line and Dynasty (out of text reference, that apparently Bakker thought made it into TTT Glossary). Before the Tutelage, the Halaroi (humans from Eanna) were actively killing Nonmen and afterwards relationships soured. Later during the Apocalypse, we have the story that, I think, Cosi is referencing that Achamian relays to Scalpers in TJE about the fall of Cil-Aujas to their Mannish allies (more on that in the TTT Glossary, I believe).

Not too many chances at it, probably.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 03:58:28 pm by Madness »
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MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2016, 09:10:42 pm »

Lol. Most of you couldn't handle all of the LOVE that is inside that perspective!!!! ;)

How True MSJ. Although for those of us who truly Believe...

Yea, Blackstone, you and I. A small tribe, test I've seen a few newcomers who feel a little like we do, lol.
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MSJ

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« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2016, 09:15:43 pm »
I will say, I am getting some uncomfortable vibes about lube love being the Secret to all the things. I get these Hyperion/Endymion flashbacks and while I found those books great at that time, I would be disappointed in them today. Then again, I doubt things will turn out to be anywhere that simple.

The Love bit, is sort of an inside joke through Podcasts and the like. I and others just feel that Kellhus truly cares for humanity and wants a world where the Consult doesn't exist, damnation isn't almost an certainty and the denizens of Earwa Wil have the judgement based on their "moral compass", more or less. Do I think LOVE is the answer and will be what ends the damnation cycle? No, no I don't. But for example, I feel the sole reason Kellhus came back to save Momemn is exactly what he said, to salvage what he may. That's he cared for his people and what he has created. In not saying he is the next Buddha, lol.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2016, 09:29:51 pm »
Another thought, after what Koringhus deduced and went to the Absolute, should we look at Inrilaitis in a new light. Inrialitis wanted death, and said so multiple times, did he also know that would take him to the Absolute, the Shortest Path. Need to go back and read all of his chapters. You know, layers of revelation and all that.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TheDeliverator

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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2016, 02:20:41 am »
Lol - one of those is me; the other is you ;)?!

In light of TGO.  What do you see... now?

The ability to to view\be the fractions is related to the absolute and yet hasn't helped the Nonmen.

What is missing?

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2016, 12:54:36 pm »
A thing I found interesting about him was the fact the conclusions he reached about the Absolute ("God") by interacting with Mimara were in line with the philosophy Kellhus shared with Proyas, regarding the nature of God. Not human, beyond care, indifferent, etc.

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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2016, 02:34:38 pm »
Lol - one of those is me; the other is you ;)?!

In light of TGO.  What do you see... now?

The ability to to view\be the fractions is related to the absolute and yet hasn't helped the Nonmen.

What is missing?

Lol - not much. For sure, I was wrong, a Dunyain did not also rule in Ishterebinth nor, does it seem anyways, that Kellhus or any other Dunyain had a hand in the Nonmen turning from worshiping Oblivion to worshiping Becoming.

Nor am I really more clear on what that even means. A cursory guess would say that while encountering the same "legion" in themselves, the Dunyain strove to master it and the Nonmen strove to yield to it?

I'd have to think more on it, Deliverator.

A thing I found interesting about him was the fact the conclusions he reached about the Absolute ("God") by interacting with Mimara were in line with the philosophy Kellhus shared with Proyas, regarding the nature of God. Not human, beyond care, indifferent, etc.

Just happens to be the first post of yours I've run into this morning, Cuttlefish, but well met and welcome to the Second Apocalypse :)!
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2016, 10:11:27 am »
Just happens to be the first post of yours I've run into this morning, Cuttlefish, but well met and welcome to the Second Apocalypse :)!

Thanks! I've been following the Second Apocalypse for a long while now, but the usual friend I discuss it with has mysteriously disappeared (and probably replaced by a skin-spy), so I felt the need to find new people to discuss it with.

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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2016, 07:41:37 pm »
Just happens to be the first post of yours I've run into this morning, Cuttlefish, but well met and welcome to the Second Apocalypse :)!

Thanks! I've been following the Second Apocalypse for a long while now, but the usual friend I discuss it with has mysteriously disappeared (and probably replaced by a skin-spy), so I felt the need to find new people to discuss it with.

Lol - happy the forum is the substitute :).

EDIT: I mean... not the thing that is now your former friend ;).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 07:43:11 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2016, 10:48:39 pm »
@ Jackhehe - Hello!  Welcome!  Here's my thoughts on Koringhus…

I think that Koringhus is the 'real' descent into Ishual.  Bakker denied us a merry tour of Ishual's depths because the real significance was the trip down into a Dunyain's mind to revisit their most fundamental assumptions.  HOWEVER, I think it is totally possible that Bakker is still saving the trip into the Thousand Thousand Halls for TUC.

I think Koringhus makes for a striking contrast with Cnauir too--scars/swazond all over.


@ RedSetter4570 - Hello!  You know, I got a totally different vibe from Koringhus--I didn't get the sense that salvation was possible, but that there was no escaping the 'greater predator.'  I got the feeling that Koringhus came to the conclusion that the only meaningful thing left that he could do was submit to his judgment of damnation instead of resisting it.  What do you say?


@ spacemost - Hey there!  Great commentary!  To add to what you were saying--I think that it's not just that the Dunyain erroneously considered the Absolute in human terms--they did that Oedipus thing--raise yourself up to high and the gods will strike you down.


I wonder to what extent Koringhus' thoughts might be 'privileged' over Kellhus' own intellect?  The Dunyain are all about incrementally improving their stock, so it could be that Koringhus has more nascent intellect than Kellhus--that Kellhus will end up coming to Koringhus' conclusions but later.

Got to wonder if the Crab-Kid is super-duper smarter than Kellhus???


@ H - Goddamnit, you are so fucking right!  "It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?""  Although, maybe it won't destroy NG, maybe he'll finally get to have the conversation that he's been moaning on about.


@ Titan, Viridius, TheDeliverator, Cuttlefish - HELLO FOLKS!  GLAD YOU ARE HERE!



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« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2016, 10:32:33 pm »
@ spacemost - Hey there!  Great commentary!  To add to what you were saying--I think that it's not just that the Dunyain erroneously considered the Absolute in human terms--they did that Oedipus thing--raise yourself up to high and the gods will strike you down.

Icarus ;).
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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2016, 12:57:31 pm »
@ H - Goddamnit, you are so fucking right!  "It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?""  Although, maybe it won't destroy NG, maybe he'll finally get to have the conversation that he's been moaning on about.

I think the No-God's questioning and seeming unawareness of itself is a key part of it's very existance.  I'd don't think a self-aware No-God can exist.

Another option is that Mimara is the Yes-God.  She kind of is the opposite of the No-God in a certain way, not the least of which is that she is pregnant and the No-God is the Death of Birth.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2016, 05:00:36 pm »
@ H - Goddamnit, you are so fucking right!  "It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?""  Although, maybe it won't destroy NG, maybe he'll finally get to have the conversation that he's been moaning on about.

I think the No-God's questioning and seeming unawareness of itself is a key part of it's very existance.  I'd don't think a self-aware No-God can exist.

Another option is that Mimara is the Yes-God.  She kind of is the opposite of the No-God in a certain way, not the least of which is that she is pregnant and the No-God is the Death of Birth.

Oh yeah--you definitely got me thinking that "What do you see?" may mean "Do I look damned in this outfit?"  But then I wonder if TUC is going to build up that possibility--that there is a major revalation to be had if the Judging Eye looks on Mog and then at the ultimate moment will find out that no answer is given, that some ignorances can't be overcome.  If the No-God had been looking for the Judging Eye all this time and then finds it and doesn't get it's answer, I wonder what it's response will be?  Give up?  Turn on the Consult? 

I guess it's even possible that revelation could work in the opposite direction.  I've been thinking that the Judging Eye is something that will force Mog in some way, but it could be the other way round.  It could be that the Judging Eye will not be able to make sense of Mog and that It (whatever is looking through Mimara) will be harmed, go blind, die, whatever.

I hadn't thought of it until this ramble, but if Yatwer was blind to the No-God during the first apocalypse, but could see sranc, then the Judging Eye embodied in a singular human might be Yatwer's (or other deities or all of them) strategy to see what all the fuss is about.

@ Madness - oh yeah, Icarus! :P