[TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus

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Parsh

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« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2016, 01:55:18 am »
That was a pretty dense section, and I'm sure I don't understand everything that's going on. Some very good elucidation here. I'll try to add what I see:

1) One more thought on the "Zero God" idea: he first talks about "zero" as any point in space. There seemed to be an implication to me of, well, like imagine a graph from mathematics. (0,0) is the center. Each person is--potentially--the center, but only (as the Dunyain) if they can make themselves the measure of all things ("Submit to the rule of another and you will measure as he measures."). But Koringhus realizes that the existence of the God, the Absolute as something more than an ideal that they're reaching for: The God is, in fact, that zero point from which true judgement is passed, and it "had found his own measure wanting."

But then, several scenes later, as he reflects on the whole "Zero made One," which seems to be related to the love for his child that doesn't really fit into Dunyain culture, when he gets to this point, from Koringhus' perspective, "The Eye watches. Approves." He seems to believe that his "revelation" has been approved. If the JE approves, does this mean that he is, in this moment, not damned? Is this--at least in his view--a redemptive moment? Does he kill himself because he believes he's not damned (which I suppose would be a good time to die)? If he kills himself because he knows his damnation... well, this seems like a strange choice. Sure, sure--there's despair, there's the qirri talking. But the fact of damnation seems to argue for either trying to find a way out of damnation or, at the very least, avoiding it as long as possible.

When we get the suicide itself, the text reads:

Quote
So quickly...
The events that transform us slip...
So quickly.
The face, cut into all expressions, all faces.
Eyes gazing wet from mutilation.
Fixed upon something that runs as he runs, a place he can only pursue, never reach...
Unless he leaps.
The Eye understood, even if the woman did not.

This is why I think he believes himself saved. He's been transformed, but he recognizes the very human difficulty of holding onto any transformation. As noted, it's a "leap of faith" that he's taking.

Madness

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« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2016, 04:08:43 pm »
I still don't understand the redemption through suicide angle (as that's a mortal sin coming from, at least, Catholicism).

But I'm also fairly sure that Mimara comments after that it being "his" leap was also important.
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« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2016, 10:30:29 am »
I still don't understand the redemption through suicide angle (as that's a mortal sin coming from, at least, Catholicism).

But I'm also fairly sure that Mimara comments after that it being "his" leap was also important.

If I follow the line of thought (I am not sure if it is really "correct") it would be such that in the moment there, with absolution via Mimara, that he is clean, or pure, or at least not damned.  Now, if suicide is a sin in Earwa, he's screwed, but I don't think it is.  So he ends himself with a clean slate.

I wonder, if this is how one reaches the Absolute, is that why Kellhus hasn't yet?  Perhaps why he is taking the track he has, because he doesn't know that Mimara can undo damnation?  Or he has an idea, but I really doubt if trying to coerce Mimara to grant absolution is a winning idea.  Isn't it implied in one of the chapters (sorry, I will try to find it later, just a little short on time right now) that Dunyain are damned a priori because of the whale-mothers, etc.?  So doesn't Kellhus have to be damned?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2016, 11:50:52 am »
But, we see through Koringhus and Mimara offers it to Galian, the chance for redemption.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2016, 02:52:35 pm »
Isn't it implied in one of the chapters (sorry, I will try to find it later, just a little short on time right now) that Dunyain are damned a priori because of the whale-mothers, etc.?  So doesn't Kellhus have to be damned?

I think so? But there's apparently room in-world for Kellhus to have shaken that Original Dunyain Sin?

But, we see through Koringhus and Mimara offers it to Galian, the chance for redemption.

If that's the case, and I don't know where I fall on Mimara having been able to grant Galian redemption, it's interesting to me that it took a Dunyain to figure out to bow before the Eye. The Eye didn't even phase Qirri-eating scalpers...
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« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2016, 04:06:51 pm »
If that's the case, and I don't know where I fall on Mimara having been able to grant Galian redemption, it's interesting to me that it took a Dunyain to figure out to bow before the Eye. The Eye didn't even phase Qirri-eating scalpers...

Well, I can't recall exactly but Koringhus seems to embrace redemption when Galian didn't?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2016, 08:12:08 pm »
Quote from: Madness

If that's the case, and I don't know where I fall on Mimara having been able to grant Galian redemption, it's interesting to me that it took a Dunyain to figure out to bow before the Eye. The Eye didn't even phase Qirri-eating scalpers...

Well, Galian was much more like the chance for redemption. IIRC, Mimara sees the oppurtunity for Galian to redeem his self. That his sins wasn't great enough that if he turned and walked a different path he might find redemption. I don't think it was comparable to what happened with Koringhus, but she saw it nonetheless.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2016, 02:28:54 pm »
Well, Galian was much more like the chance for redemption. IIRC, Mimara sees the oppurtunity for Galian to redeem his self. That his sins wasn't great enough that if he turned and walked a different path he might find redemption. I don't think it was comparable to what happened with Koringhus, but she saw it nonetheless.

This is what I think as well.
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themerchant

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« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2016, 05:04:15 pm »
So raping a child and killing her by suffocating her to shut her up are sins that can be redeemed?

I'm not sure that Mimara can pardon sin at all. She can say i forgive you but i'm not sure that actually does anything.

MSJ

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« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2016, 06:34:44 pm »
So raping a child and killing her by suffocating her to shut her up are sins that can be redeemed?

I'm not sure that Mimara can pardon sin at all. She can say i forgive you but i'm not sure that actually does anything.

You've got Galian confused with the one that was going to rape her the first time.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Parsh

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« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2016, 07:46:26 pm »
So raping a child and killing her by suffocating her to shut her up are sins that can be redeemed?

I'm not sure that Mimara can pardon sin at all. She can say i forgive you but i'm not sure that actually does anything.

You've got Galian confused with the one that was going to rape her the first time.

Either way, I'm with themerchant in wondering whether Mimara can pardon sin at all. After all, it's the Judging Eye, not the Judging Mouth.  :D

themerchant

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« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2016, 08:24:44 pm »
So raping a child and killing her by suffocating her to shut her up are sins that can be redeemed?

I'm not sure that Mimara can pardon sin at all. She can say i forgive you but i'm not sure that actually does anything.

You've got Galian confused with the one that was going to rape her the first time.

Nah from White luck warrior.

"a Crimson Butterfly" she murmurs, blinking at memories not her own
The mans grin falters "A what?"...
... All three men go rigid. Powkas looks to Galian for a laughing dismissal that does not come. A kind of pity wells through her, watching horror and arrogance dual in Galians eyes.

MSJ

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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2016, 08:43:48 pm »
Lol. Ok, guess not then. Well, it's just how I read it. She sees that he may redeem himself and might find salvation.

To your other point, on Mimara being able to forgive, I think I'm with you that she can't really forgive anyone and therefore their saved. With Koringhus he comes to understand and therefore the JE approves. But, only after he understands. What I am saying is that I don't think Mimara can forgive and all is well. I think your right on that.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2016, 12:23:30 am »
Mimara forgives Galian for raping her because she can see the extent of his damnation and it is so horrific that she pities him.  She can't bear to add any more torment to what is due because what he will already suffer is so terrible already.  Galian is already literally so damned that he evokes sympathy from his victim.  The passage illustrates the Mimara is not so damaged as to be incapable of empathy and how terrible damnation is.  There is no indication that she has the power to forgive sins other than that of a person to forgive someone who has wrong him or her, although it would be really nice if she did.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2016, 07:57:12 pm »
I almost cried at the end of the Koringhus chapter