(TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor

  • 61 Replies
  • 19778 Views

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 05:16:49 pm »
I read 12 germs as Triskele did. 12 germs, meaning either 12 children currently in the birthing room, or 12 of Koringus' children.

However, I'd very much like an answer to how many families started Ishual, and 12 selfishly falls within my original calculations, so I like this theory.

However, why would he refer to family lines, or anything else, as 'germs'? Did the Dunyain develop enough in advanced biology to come up with germ theory, cell theory, and have an understanding of DNA... Color me surprised.

I imagine he meant germ in the sense of:

a portion of an organism capable of developing into a new one or part of one. Compare with germ cell.
• the embryo in a cereal grain or other plant seed. Compare with wheat germ.
• an initial stage from which something may develop: the germ of a brilliant idea.

Which isn't quite as strong as using "Seeds" but I sparkle with the idea that Germs refers to the original familial breeding lines.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

spacemost

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 01:26:44 pm »
I thought the boy was just physical defective  (the crab hand) other then that he is just a untrained Dunyain.
Aaa, I read it as the crab hand having resulted from injury. Didn't catch that he was born that way.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 04:17:54 pm »
I think there is also a lot of promise with the boy. Koringhus notes that he hasn't received any training besides the merest training he's been able to do. So, is the "evil" of the Dûnyain embedded in him genetically or is it something learned through training? Will he be as cold and calculated as his grandfather? So many ways his story could go.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2660
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 04:22:41 pm »
I think there is also a lot of promise with the boy. Koringhus notes that he hasn't received any training besides the merest training he's been able to do. So, is the "evil" of the Dûnyain embedded in him genetically or is it something learned through training? Will he be as cold and calculated as his grandfather? So many ways his story could go.

Good point.  As far as we know, there has never been an untrained Dunyain loose in the world.  In other words, never has one been loose without already being preconditioned to the Logos, fully.  Unlike the rest, he is now free to learn how the world actually is, without, as Koringhus essentially puts it, the mistake of blindly following the Logos.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2016, 09:26:44 pm »
Good point.  As far as we know, there has never been an untrained Dunyain loose in the world.  In other words, never has one been loose without already being preconditioned to the Logos, fully.  Unlike the rest, he is now free to learn how the world actually is, without, as Koringhus essentially puts it, the mistake of blindly following the Logos.

Plus, with him have natural physical enhanced physical and mental abilities just through 1000's of years of breeding, probably in of the few, he will have the skills and acumen to be very powerful. I think he's be way more powerful than Kelmommas could ever be, without the evil that runs through Kelmommas.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2016, 12:52:01 pm »
I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I  don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2016, 02:01:41 pm »
I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I  don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.

Cuttlefish, is it safe to say we can add you to the "Kellhus cares" camp? Meaning although he remains Dunyain, he cares about humanity and the ones he loves.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2016, 02:18:16 pm »
Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"

I'll have to go back and dig out the relevant quotes, but my impression at the moment is he didn't recognise them as separate entities. He was another of his legion.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2016, 02:51:36 pm »
I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I  don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.

Cuttlefish, is it safe to say we can add you to the "Kellhus cares" camp? Meaning although he remains Dunyain, he cares about humanity and the ones he loves.

Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2016, 04:38:03 pm »
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2016, 04:42:57 pm »
Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"

I'll have to go back and dig out the relevant quotes, but my impression at the moment is he didn't recognise them as separate entities. He was another of his legion.

Could be. I also thought he said something along the lines of he didn't know why he grabbed the boy.....he just did. But that could be related to what you said, of course.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2016, 05:08:25 pm »
I got the impression that he came to the realization that he grabbed the boy because of the Legion Within; because it was his son, without even fully realizing.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2016, 05:10:17 pm »
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....

IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2016, 05:24:43 pm »
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....

IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.

Yes, IIRC, it's right after he talks to Proyas about Serwe being damned. Its why i believe his goals are to defeat the Consult and the 100, to end damnation.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2016, 02:53:35 pm »
Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"

Interesting catch, themerchant. That seems to reflect his later realization that the human folly is recognizing the interval, or something thereabouts.

Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....

Lol - I can't imagine we were all laughing at you, MSJ ;).

Weirdly enough, that TAE's Kellhus is become a man who once was Dunyain was one of my seventeen year-old Madness' original theories way back on ZTS.

Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....

IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.

That he failed to anticipate that his heart would also "crash into ruin," I believe.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer