[TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2016, 02:13:23 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?

It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea.  I'll need to think about it a little more.  Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods.  Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA.  Trying to get them involved in the SA?  Dunno.
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2016, 09:08:22 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?

It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea.  I'll need to think about it a little more.  Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods.  Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA.  Trying to get them involved in the SA?  Dunno.


I need full-blown theories, Som.

No half-ass theories on the Slog!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Somnambulist

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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2016, 11:06:41 pm »
 
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?

It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea.  I'll need to think about it a little more.  Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods.  Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA.  Trying to get them involved in the SA?  Dunno.


I need full-blown theories, Som.

No half-ass theories on the Slog!

Meh.  There's a lot to be said for half-assery.  :P
No whistling on the slog!

Madness

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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 04:31:59 pm »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?

It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea.  I'll need to think about it a little more.  Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods.  Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA.  Trying to get them involved in the SA?  Dunno.


I need full-blown theories, Som.

No half-ass theories on the Slog!

Meh.  There's a lot to be said for half-assery.  :P

Lol - can't say the Second Apocalypse forum doesn't at least try to half-ass it.
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 03:39:47 am »
Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse?  One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed.  Can gods see the dreams of men?

I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?

I'm wondering if the Grasping is not what we think it is.  Maybe the Mandate aren't connecting with a thing (Seswatha's soul), they are connecting with a conduit to the Outside.  Akka can dream other (dead) people's perspectives because Seswatha is connecting Akka to particular damned souls.  That is, Seswatha's soul might stradle both worlds like the soul in the Amiolas.

Also, I don't know if I had ever realized it before, but after Akka has the Nau-Cayuti/Shauriatus dream, does he act like it's news about Shauriatus physical state?  Makes me wonder if Seswatha only ever came in contact with a battle-synthese.

Other explanations for Akka's non-Seswatha dreams: straigh up a god is sending them (Akka is somebody's white-luck or something), Kellhus is just making up shit and sending it to Akka (big revelation on the way that Akka got told huge lies), Old Moe is sending made up dreams, the physical object known as Seswatha's heart is actually several hearts fused to look like one (Seswatha's, Celmomas', NC's, and probably Cujara's too), Seswatha did something to absorb the dreams of the other guys and so Akka is experiencing the memory of Seswatha's experiencing those dreams.

I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?

Cosi

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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2016, 05:01:34 am »
I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?

I was wondering about that. The Heart/Dreams are clearly a way to store memories outside someone's mind. If you can do that, you could just stick a bunch of happy memories in a store and dream every night anew of your wives, daughters, and glory. If I understand how the process of becoming Erratic works, that should stave it off indefinitely.

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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2016, 08:56:03 pm »
That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?

Madness

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2016, 11:52:50 pm »
Also, I don't know if I had ever realized it before, but after Akka has the Nau-Cayuti/Shauriatus dream, does he act like it's news about Shauriatus physical state?  Makes me wonder if Seswatha only ever came in contact with a battle-synthese.

Yeah, there's a discrepancy between Achamian's "learning how Shauriatas survived" in TGO and Serwa claiming that she's fought Shauriatas in Seswatha's Dreams in WLW.

I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?

I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?

I was wondering about that. The Heart/Dreams are clearly a way to store memories outside someone's mind. If you can do that, you could just stick a bunch of happy memories in a store and dream every night anew of your wives, daughters, and glory. If I understand how the process of becoming Erratic works, that should stave it off indefinitely.

I know someone has brought this up somewhere before on the forum as a possibility.

That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?

That's the thought.

I brought up on the most recent Cast - which I promise is forthcoming - that either we're not supposed to know much, if anything, about the Inverse Fire within the main narrative OR Bakker is banking quite heavily on a piece of unreleased work that exists solely on his blog.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 11:54:35 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2016, 04:48:11 pm »
That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?

Ha!  That hadn't occurred to me.  The first time I read the end, I was struck by oddness of the phrase that hell had a wig.  I wonder if there's anything more to that. 

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2016, 10:06:13 pm »
I'd have to say what we seenis indeednthe IF. The Nonmen are transfixed by it, IF, a fire on the ceiling. What drove the Nonmen to the deeps of the Mansions? The Starving Sky.

Here's my deal, I thinks it's a definite goad. As others have pointed out that what the ceiling of that room is wasn't when the Ark isn't sitting on the angle it is. Could just be a huge computer screen. It's a goad to the Nonmen because of the Starving Sky and it's why it transfixed them so. The nameless wretch barely remarks on it, because of not having the same beliefs as the Nonmen. Goad. Goad all the way.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MG

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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2016, 04:01:50 am »
I'd have to say what we seenis indeednthe IF. The Nonmen are transfixed by it, IF, a fire on the ceiling. What drove the Nonmen to the deeps of the Mansions? The Starving Sky.

Here's my deal, I thinks it's a definite goad. As others have pointed out that what the ceiling of that room is wasn't when the Ark isn't sitting on the angle it is. Could just be a huge computer screen. It's a goad to the Nonmen because of the Starving Sky and it's why it transfixed them so. The nameless wretch barely remarks on it, because of not having the same beliefs as the Nonmen. Goad. Goad all the way.

Oh I hadn't thought of it--the Inverse Fire was maybe just Regular Fucked Up Fire before the Ark crashed. 

But MSJ, you've got me thinking--I guess I assumed that the IF was an upside down flame, but maybe it's reversed in some other way?  Instead of bright fire, it's dark.  Instead of hot, it's cold.  In fact, whatever the IF is, maybe it's just a really striking manifestation of the Void, The Starving Sky, The Emptiness, whatevs. 

Poor Earwa, dangling between The Void and Hell.  Pick one: consuming meaninglessness and consuming meaningingness.

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 04:22:25 pm »
Well, we did see a glimpse (presumably) of the Inverse Fire.  Kind of seemed bright and flickering like regular fire.  I still think it has to do with the fact that it doesn't consume you though.

It's interesting, because in the Judaeo-Christian sense, Hell is below you and Heaven above, but on Earwa, Hell is above you and something like Oblivion is below?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 04:30:35 am »
Well, we did see a glimpse (presumably) of the Inverse Fire.  Kind of seemed bright and flickering like regular fire.  I still think it has to do with the fact that it doesn't consume you though.

It's interesting, because in the Judaeo-Christian sense, Hell is below you and Heaven above, but on Earwa, Hell is above you and something like Oblivion is below?

Exactly. In the Boatman's songs we hear him refer to the Starving Sky. And, that's why the Nonmen dug out Mansions, to escape it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 01:19:07 pm »
Exactly. In the Boatman's songs we hear him refer to the Starving Sky. And, that's why the Nonmen dug out Mansions, to escape it.

Indeed, which brings up an interesting though we've had before.  Is there really Salvation?  Is there really a Heaven in Earwa?  Perhaps not.  The Nonmen were perhaps right, the only choices are Damnation or Oblivion.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 08:31:56 pm »
Didn't Bakker himself mention three options in some long ago interview?
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”