[TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?

  • 55 Replies
  • 17695 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2016, 09:30:38 pm »
This seems to be the end of that exchange:

Quote
I tend the fields …
  A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
  And burn them.
  The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
  “The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
  Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
  The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
  “Then Heaven is not sane.”

It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out  the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.

Sure seems that way sometimes, sometimes not. Yours quoting him conditioning Proyas, and before this he goes on about how he must stamp out someone with such Zeal for the God. I agree it's not gonna be a pretty ending, but he will be doing what best for Earwa in my opinion. I disagree, I think damnation is his motivating factor in all he does. Remember, the TTT has outgrown Moe's original vision, defeating the Consult.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Titan

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2016, 07:26:01 am »
This seems to be the end of that exchange:

Quote
I tend the fields …
  A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
  And burn them.
  The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
  “The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
  Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
  The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
  “Then Heaven is not sane.”

It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out  the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.

One thing to keep in mind is that everything Kellhus says to someone else is intended to manipulate, so it can't necessarily be taken at face value. Only his interior thoughts portray his true intentions and beliefs - and even then he could be deluding himself.

Bolivar

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 345
    • View Profile
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 04:07:29 pm »


One thing to keep in mind is that everything Kellhus says to someone else is intended to manipulate, so it can't necessarily be taken at face value. Only his interior thoughts portray his true intentions and beliefs - and even then he could be deluding himself.

For me it's the narration as much as what Kellhus says to Proyas. Calling him/itself as the one who burns the fields, the repeated use of "Place" and calling him its most beautiful slave suggest he's submitted to whatever it is he began fearing at the end of TTT.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2016, 05:22:24 pm »
Isn't he calling Proyas his most beautiful slave.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2016, 02:13:27 pm »
^^ Yes.
You are the fist that beats us.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2016, 07:12:28 pm »
If fantasy fiction is scripture, as Bakker has often said, then the events in these 7 books will be regarded as the Old/New Testament of the times in the third series.

I honestly don't think we'll actually see much of the war of the titular "Second Apocalypse" on page, we'll only learn incidental details after the fact 1000 years later.

This is great.

If Kellhus is aiming to disenchant the world, lock the gods and the Outside out, then maybe Bakker will be writing some scifi books. 

That would be cool. Same universe, no magic, just sci-fi brain-tech and BBT all swirled together. There are definitely thematic threads that weave their way between all of Bakkers works, sometimes I pretend like its more directly connected than it probably really is.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 07:23:43 pm »
From what I recall of a interview, Bakker felt stifled by restrictions of real world when writing Neuropath. It was still a helluva of a book. Putting it down after finishing it, I had to sit in a shower for an hour or two and think.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Srancy

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Unconditioned Shit Herder
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2016, 11:55:03 pm »
Kellhus is Truth and you all should be ashamed for doubting Him.

Bolivar

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 345
    • View Profile
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 03:14:42 pm »
Isn't he calling Proyas his most beautiful slave.
Yes, the "it" in the passage is referring to Kellhus.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2016, 09:51:37 pm »
From what I recall of a interview, Bakker felt stifled by restrictions of real world when writing Neuropath. It was still a helluva of a book. Putting it down after finishing it, I had to sit in a shower for an hour or two and think.

Yeah, the forward to Neuropath indicates near future with available or nearly available tech. It was a self imposed restriction.

He needs to write some more SF, damn it. His TPB shorts paint a compelling world
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2016, 05:13:12 pm »
He needs to write some more SF, damn it. His TPB shorts paint a compelling world

Indeed, good sir.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2660
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2016, 04:59:55 pm »
While I started this thread, I never actually posted my feeling on the subject.  This is because I was honestly asking people's opinion because I'm genuinely unsure of exactly what I think is the real end-game here.

On the one hand, I feel reasonably sure that what Kellhus is after is a rewriting of Damnation.  On the other, I am unsure of is exactly what that entails and so ultimately means.  So, what replaces Damnation?  Or is it just a different flavor of Damnation?  If it is the disenchantment of Earwa, the destruction of the "meaningfulness" of the world, what is the net effect?

In the end, does this make life better off for the "average Joe?"  I have always felt that the series is set up for a major reversal in the end.  That what we think we know isn't really the full picture.  So, Kellhus may be a savior, from the Consult, maybe from Damnation, but I have my doubts it makes life any better for the people of Earwa (on the balance).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Doubt

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2016, 11:42:51 pm »
I agree, but to be fair that was never his intention and I doubt it ever would be. The world is still gonna be fucked, whatever happens, though it might be more mundane if the Consult are gone.
Cuts and cuts and cuts.

Pig Teeth Shines

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2016, 09:27:19 pm »
So my theory is that kellhus is a part of the Conslut and he is trying to betray them by leading the great ordel and try to rule the Conslut by trying to wipe them or maybe he might just want to be more powerful then the Consult to kill the gods
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 09:31:36 pm by Pig Teeth Shines »

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2016, 12:57:08 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Pig Teeth Shines (PTS?).

If Kellhus was trying to betray men to the consult, what of Zeum? Why do you think he left them?

One of the other conditions of possibility.