[TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?

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Pig Teeth Shines

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« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2016, 01:24:56 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Pig Teeth Shines (PTS?).

If Kellhus was trying to betray men to the consult, what of Zeum? Why do you think he left them?
Mabye because he wanted to achieve more power and become one of the leaders and they didn't want him to do that so he betrayed them or we will know in the unholy consult :-)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 01:28:46 pm by Pig Teeth Shines »

H

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« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2016, 08:51:22 pm »
I agree, but to be fair that was never his intention and I doubt it ever would be. The world is still gonna be fucked, whatever happens, though it might be more mundane if the Consult are gone.

I would go a step further and say, more mundane if Kellhus pulls off some kind of end to Damnation.

I think the Earwa becoming somehow, disenchanted, is nearly a given, since we know from Bakker that a destruction of meaningfulness is kind of imminent.  What we are left to ask is, perhaps, how?  Or even more so, what does that look like?  And what does it mean for Earwa and the characters?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ender

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« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2016, 05:04:02 pm »
Here's a theory (didn't see it mentioned so far, maybe already discussed ?):
TLDR : Kehllus is to become the No-God.

Why : Sorry but a bit of Mind-Body problem explanation is needed here. What i understood so far of the book's world is that it basically works as a Spinoza viewed ours. Id est free will is a lie (we only think ourselves free because we don't see what moves us), everything is a chain of causes and effects, AND there is actual difference between the physical world (PW) and the let's call it "soul world" (SW) where minds/thoughts/souls (whichever you prefer) live. How come we see connection between what we think in our soul (or mind) and the physical world ? Because God made the world so that the sequences in our soul coincide with those in the physical world, there is kind of the same logic in both and understanding one is understanding the other and both are determined on parallel paths.
Thus there is 2 major sins you can do (impossible for Spinoza but Bakker can do what he wants :) ), which both break the link PW/SW :
- you could apply on the PW the meanings born from your soul (the SW), therefore making something happen in the material world that wasn't cause nor can be explained by something in it. It's called magic, wizardry.
- or you could make something happen from your understanding of the PW (that is science) which has no SW equivalent. Let's dwell on this one : doing so is doing something that has literally no meaning, no soul. The first exemple of this is the Tekne, the second is the Dunyain program.
What the Survivor understood is the deep difference between knowing "how" and knowing "why", and that the Dunyain way is a dead-end in this regard (in France we say : science is knowing that tomatoes are fruits, wisdom is knowing  not to put them in a fruit-salad).
Have the Inchoroi created the Dunyain sect or not, they both lead to the same thing (the dunyains being far more efficient) : the creation of something with the powers of a god but without any SW equivalent, therefore that cannot be seen from the SW and the gods.

Sorry for the english, not mother tongue
You are the neck of a bottle. The World but drips into your soul. We dwell in the deluge. You come to us as a cataract. You assume you are unitary and alone, when in sooth you are a mob of blind men, crying out words you cannot comprehend in voices you cannot hear.

Madness

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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2016, 05:50:23 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, ender. Your English is fine and shame on us monolinguists ;). Love the name, by the way.
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MSJ

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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2016, 11:05:35 pm »
Welcome @ender! It's has been theorized that Kellhus is the No-God. As I've been thinking on it, because it does seem where it leading,i have one problem - mind you, a problem brought forth through H's musings on The Voice.

I think H is right, the voice Kellhus hears is indeed his self. His self in the Outside directing events to an end we've yet to see. If Kellhus was to become the No-God, I would postulate that the Voice would be that of the No-God. And, I don't think that's the case, because the Voice is guiding Kellhus through the new and improved Thousandfold Thought. To destroy the Consult and put and end to damnation, which leads to warring with the 100, which we know he is.

I think a whole lot of people expect Kellhus to become the No-God because that's what Bakker wants us to believe. I think he might use the No-God in some fashion, maybe as a way to destroy the Gods. The Gods are blind to the No-God, it would be a tool of Kellhus's the 100 would never see coming. But, for him to become the No-God as an ally and tool of the Consult, I can't see it and am not buying it. Remember, Kellhus is no longer Dûnyain, he is more.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ender

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« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2016, 09:16:28 am »
Hiho @MSJ @Madness, thx for the welcome  :)

@MSJ : Sticking to my theory (PW/SW), the No-God is not so much someone you can talk to as pure material causality, a mechanism, without meaning and therefore always hungry for something it doesn't know. It's like understanding how to have sex with anyone yet not how to love, you would never settle for anyone, never be satisfied. Thus is the No-God always asking "what am i" "do you know me".
This may sound dumb the way i put it but there is deep philosophy at stake here (Milgram's agentification, Kant...)   

Yes i think too his voice his guiding Kehllus, and on several occasions he is described (even by himself) as a mere tool: he is what he's needed to be.
(click to show/hide)
This makes him both more as you said and less, as i disagree with you about his having feelings (or at least his understanding them, not using them as mere tools). To me, what Mimara and Drusas found out is of utmost importance, because they'll be the only one able to understand his question and answer to it when/if Kehllus become the No-God (which, in a sense , he already is).
Whether Kehlllus is aware of this or not, it totally makes sense to me that it is his path.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 03:31:10 pm by ender »
You are the neck of a bottle. The World but drips into your soul. We dwell in the deluge. You come to us as a cataract. You assume you are unitary and alone, when in sooth you are a mob of blind men, crying out words you cannot comprehend in voices you cannot hear.

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« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2016, 07:23:29 pm »
You all just wait and see, when Akka kneels to a dying Kellhus on The Fields of Elonoit. Then, you'll see his true feelings revealed. I think we already seen it, with his realization of being betrayed by Esme. He has feelings and I'm have the last laugh. I'm certain.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2016, 11:51:14 am »
This makes him both more as you said and less, as i disagree with you about his having feelings (or at least his understanding them, not using them as mere tools). To me, what Mimara and Drusas found out is of utmost importance, because they'll be the only one able to understand his question and answer to it when/if Kehllus become the No-God (which, in a sense , he already is).

Whether Kehlllus is aware of this or not, it totally makes sense to me that it is his path.

Welcome Ender, I like the vein of your theorizing, but I disagree about it's ultimate end though.  While I do find that the Spinoza parallels are pretty real, I think that the end game of Kellhus plays out differently.  Let us not forget one of the biggest "revelations" nestled in TGO is that The Thousandfold Thought didn't end with Kellhus killing Moënghus, it still lives.  Coupled with Theli's summation of Kellhus, that he is nothing more than what he needs to be in the moment (following that it is The Thousandfold Thought that dictates the what) and Kellhus' revelation at the end, where he flippantly, but importantly, admits he himself is weary.

To me all this speaks to a Kellhus who, like everyone else in the series, is caught up in the mechanization of things beyond themselves.  The irony of Kellhus is that, at least in my theory, it is himself that is beyond himself, he is indeed actually manipulating himself just as much, if not more, than he his manipulating everyone else.  While the idea that Kellhus becomes the No-God isn't without merit, as you point out, but to me it doesn't seem to answer any of the questions about the aim of The Thousandfold Thought.

To sort of echo what MSJ says, to me the No-God is too much of a Consult tool for Kellhus to really aspire to become such a limited thing.  I guess you could call me a Kellhus Transcendentalist, but the issue of what he transcends too is pretty up in the air.  I just don't see Kellhus in league with the Consult, because if it were so, why bother fighting them?  He could simply volunteer to become the No-God and be done with it.  I don't see this as what Kellhus really wants.  He want's a more "real" transcendence.  I think what he wants is true godhood.

Perhaps though he is duped into becoming the No-God, or he does so unwittingly.  But I have a good deal of doubts about this being particularly plausible.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ender

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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2016, 12:32:56 pm »
To me all this speaks to a Kellhus who, like everyone else in the series, is caught up in the mechanization of things beyond themselves.  The irony of Kellhus is that, at least in my theory, it is himself that is beyond himself, he is indeed actually manipulating himself just as much, if not more, than he his manipulating everyone else.  While the idea that Kellhus becomes the No-God isn't without merit, as you point out, but to me it doesn't seem to answer any of the questions about the aim of The Thousandfold Thought.

I totally agree with that ! To me, the thing is :
  • the gods aren't exactly what anyone would want to abide to, i mean is anyone not damned in this book ??
  • the No-God is the only thing so far that could do something significant against the gods
It's a kind of Katabasis, kehllus has to go through "hell" before being able to transcend. (I really don't think he sides with the consult, wouldn't make any sense, just that he needs their tool)
You are the neck of a bottle. The World but drips into your soul. We dwell in the deluge. You come to us as a cataract. You assume you are unitary and alone, when in sooth you are a mob of blind men, crying out words you cannot comprehend in voices you cannot hear.

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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2016, 01:23:47 pm »
I totally agree with that ! To me, the thing is :
  • the gods aren't exactly what anyone would want to abide to, i mean is anyone not damned in this book ??
  • the No-God is the only thing so far that could do something significant against the gods
It's a kind of Katabasis, kehllus has to go through "hell" before being able to transcend. (I really don't think he sides with the consult, wouldn't make any sense, just that he needs their tool)

Oh, most certainly, I feel like everyone is damned.  I think a major question though is, does Mimara's forgiveness, via the Judging Eye really change this?

On the No-God, while it's existence does "defeat" the gods to an extent, is that the kind of victory Kellhus would seek?  While my initial ideas about the No-God and Kellhus' plans were more along the line of Consult's plan to seal the world, more and more I doubt this.  Why?  Because I think Kellhus seeks transcendence.  He wants to be on par with the gods, not simply to cut them off.  Or so it seems.

The question then is, what is the No-God's role?  That I am unsure of, unless it is an "End Boss" of sorts.  One who's defeat heralds the Consult's end.  I still think that Mimara will look at the No-God and answer it's question and in so, end it's existence.  But maybe that wouldn't end it, but rather invert it?  Or somehow transmute it?  To what I don't know.

Of course, perhaps there is a middle ground.  Mimara's answering, the No-God transmuted, Kellhus transcendent, all go toward a new ontology?  One where Kellhus is the Solitary God?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2017, 03:58:54 am »
Here's a theory (didn't see it mentioned so far, maybe already discussed ?):
TLDR : Kehllus is to become the No-God.

Why : Sorry but a bit of Mind-Body problem explanation is needed here. What i understood so far of the book's world is that it basically works as a Spinoza viewed ours. Id est free will is a lie (we only think ourselves free because we don't see what moves us), everything is a chain of causes and effects, AND there is actual difference between the physical world (PW) and the let's call it "soul world" (SW) where minds/thoughts/souls (whichever you prefer) live. How come we see connection between what we think in our soul (or mind) and the physical world ? Because God made the world so that the sequences in our soul coincide with those in the physical world, there is kind of the same logic in both and understanding one is understanding the other and both are determined on parallel paths.
Thus there is 2 major sins you can do (impossible for Spinoza but Bakker can do what he wants :) ), which both break the link PW/SW :
- you could apply on the PW the meanings born from your soul (the SW), therefore making something happen in the material world that wasn't cause nor can be explained by something in it. It's called magic, wizardry.
- or you could make something happen from your understanding of the PW (that is science) which has no SW equivalent. Let's dwell on this one : doing so is doing something that has literally no meaning, no soul. The first exemple of this is the Tekne, the second is the Dunyain program.
What the Survivor understood is the deep difference between knowing "how" and knowing "why", and that the Dunyain way is a dead-end in this regard (in France we say : science is knowing that tomatoes are fruits, wisdom is knowing  not to put them in a fruit-salad).
Have the Inchoroi created the Dunyain sect or not, they both lead to the same thing (the dunyains being far more efficient) : the creation of something with the powers of a god but without any SW equivalent, therefore that cannot be seen from the SW and the gods.

Sorry for the english, not mother tongue

hi ender!  nice name!