[TGO SPOILERS] Saubon: Battle of Mengedda (TWP) & the Battle at Dagliash (TGO)

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MisterGuyMan

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« on: August 25, 2016, 05:56:37 pm »
Quote from: The Warrior Prophet, Battle of Mengedda
By the God, his fury felt so empty, so frail against the eart!  He reached out with his bare left hand and grabbed another hand-cold, heavily callused, leathery fingers and glass nails.  A dead hand.  He looked up across the matted grasses and stared at the dead man's face.  An Inrithi.  The features were flattened against the ground and partly sheathed in blood.  The man had lost his helm, and sandy-blond hair jutted from his mail hood.  The coid had fallen aside, pressed against his bottom lip.  He seemed so heavy, so stationary-like more ground.

A nightmarish moment of recognition, too surreal to be terrifying.

It was his face!  His own hand he held!

He tried to scream.

Nothing.

Quote from: The Great Ordeal, Battle of Dagliash
And he knew the way all the Dead knew, with the certainty of timeless recollection.

Hell... rising on a bubbling rush.  Agony and wickedness chattering with famished glee...

Demons, come to pull his outside through his inside, to invert, to invert and expose, to bare his every tenderness to fire and gnashing teeth...

Damnation... in spite of everything.

There was no describing the horror.

He tried to clutch with dead fingers... to hold on...

Don't!  he tried to call across the space of a dead man's reach.  But his ribs were a breathless cage, his lips cold and soil.  Don't let go...

Please!  he screaned at his younger self, trying to communicate the whole of his life with sightless eyes... Fool!  Ingrate!

Don't trust Hi--

First of all let me say that I totally missed this on my first read.  I only caught it when I went back rereading the first trilogy.  Second, it's pretty much one of the best moments in the novel for me now.  We already suspect this happens ever since Kellhus states that Serwe is burning in hell but that POV of actually seeing Saubon transition into hell after his death was just a great moment.  I really love how I always thought that excerpt of Saubon seeing himself in the second book was just a way to add creepiness into the battle in a very general way but Bakker had it all planned out to bring it full circle three books later.

I have no idea what to think of this so far.  From the top of my head it's weird because it always seemed like only the gods could affect the past but here a random soul is literally reaching out to his past self.  I know Mengedda is a special place as a Topos but it still seems odd that random souls have that power.  I also like how the very highwater moment that Saubon's faith in Kellhus is cemented is looped inextricably linked to the moment when he loses his faith completely.

As a Zauduyani myself I don't think this shakes my belief in Kellhus at all.  He's still the messiah figure of the story.  He uses people as tools and doesn't care if they end up in hell.  He'll still save humanity IMO.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:26:08 pm by MisterGuyMan »

Bolivar

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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 06:15:45 pm »
You fool! Kellhus is not the Messiah! Don't let a fictional character become so powerful that he even seduces the book readers! He IS the Second Apocalypse, not its harbinger. His sigil is that of the false prophet and he leads his followers to Golgotterath, where no salvation can be found.

Seriously, this was one of the coolest parts of the whole series, definitely a "put down the book" moment. I wonder if he heard it when he was younger and this is why he didn't want to see Kellhus after the battle?


Monkhound

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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 06:16:47 pm »
Loved the passage. Goosebumps! I had reread the whole series dieting the months leading towards the release of TGO. I remembered the passage ams immediately liked it up: It was exactly the same.

I know Mengedda is a special place as a Topos but it still seems odd that random souls have that power.

What do you mean "random soul"?  ;) Remember it was Kellhus who sent him forward with a (tentatively) calculated risk in TWP with the remark to punish the Shrial Knights before the battle of Mengedda, thus binding Saubon to him. The link (impersonated by Saubons linked arms) between the two scenes here is created by Kellhus, not Saubon.
If I'm correct, this is all kinds of messed up ^^.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

H

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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 07:14:23 pm »
What happens to Saubon (his future self appearing to his past self) is part of why I feel it is more probable than ever that Kellhus might actually be the one in his own visions, there, sitting under the tree.  I speculated on this before TGO, but now I feel we've been told that it certainly is possible.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 09:03:56 am »
Time isn't stricktly linear in the Outside.  The gods don't perceive like humans do, prophecy is real, and sorcery works.  That which comes After can determine what becomes Before. 

Monkhound

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 03:41:06 pm »
Time isn't stricktly linear in the Outside.  The gods don't perceive like humans do, prophecy is real, and sorcery works.  That which comes After can determine what becomes Before.

Early on, in one of the Aörsi/Dagliash chapters, we discover Kellhus referring to himself as "The Place called Anasurimbor Kellhus" in one of his POV scenes.
The idea that he can then be elsewhere instead, like somewhere else in time, is not so far-fetched then.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Bolivar

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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 03:43:02 pm »
Time isn't stricktly linear in the Outside.  The gods don't perceive like humans do, prophecy is real, and sorcery works.  That which comes After can determine what becomes Before.
In this world.

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 04:10:59 pm »
Time isn't stricktly linear in the Outside.  The gods don't perceive like humans do, prophecy is real, and sorcery works.  That which comes After can determine what becomes Before.

Early on, in one of the Aörsi/Dagliash chapters, we discover Kellhus referring to himself as "The Place called Anasurimbor Kellhus" in one of his POV scenes.
The idea that he can then be elsewhere instead, like somewhere else in time, is not so far-fetched then.
Somewhere and some-when collapse in the outside for sure.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 08:35:25 am »
I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point, but I've gotta ask the Zaudunyani here: What does saving the world/humanity even mean?

As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 08:52:56 am »
I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point, but I've gotta ask the Zaudunyani here: What does saving the world/humanity even mean?

As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

Yes, but we still don't see Kellhus's plan.  He has walked in the Outside.  He might have a better way of making war on the gods or sealing the world than burning the gods' fields.  No genocide, no damnation beats genocide and no damnation.   

Monkhound

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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 10:24:05 am »
As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

The Cunuroi have probably forgotten theirs.
Kellhus's has to do with him being the Second Apocalypse, but what (possibly who's) world is to end, remains to be seen. Currently I have the impression it has to do with creating a gate to the Outside.
The Halaroi in general have none.
Akka and Mimara ("our Heroes") are clueless (to a measure).

The world created by Bakker is not ideal to think about under influence I suppose, but with some mind-relaxing stuff I got thinking last night:
What if the Cunuroi actually managed to seal off Heaven (before the Inchoroi even landed) to ensure they would never got to the Outside on their deaths, and Kellhus is the one to unshut it for humanity? Think about it: There is currently only demons and evil deities we have seen. Where are Heaven and the good-aligned outsiders?
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2016, 12:30:23 pm »

The world created by Bakker is not ideal to think about under influence I suppose, but with some mind-relaxing stuff I got thinking last night:
What if the Cunuroi actually managed to seal off Heaven (before the Inchoroi even landed) to ensure they would never got to the Outside on their deaths, and Kellhus is the one to unshut it for humanity? Think about it: There is currently only demons and evil deities we have seen. Where are Heaven and the good-aligned outsiders?

Good aligned outsiders?  Have you no respect for the Mother of Birth?  She Who Gives?  Are you some Fanish heretic or Nonman to call The Hundred demons?  The Hundred keep heaven for the faithful.  The priests assure us this is so.   :)

You're assuming a lot that isn't at all supported in any of the texts.  Yawter is as close to a benevolent god as we find, a goddess who actually gives a fuck about the downtrodden.  She rewards people with their sacrifices, their often materially quite harmful sacrifices, in the Outside.  Maybe.  She also eats sinners and is blind to the coming of the No-God so she blames the coming catastrophe on who she can see who has great power:  the lying false prophet emperor.  She is a benevolent god, by the standards of the setting and many ancient religions.  This isn't a setting with armies in heaven waging wars to armies of demons of hell.  This is a setting where the elect, whoever they are, become the pets of gods and the damned are cast to demons and there may or may not be too much difference between their fates.  It isn't warm and fuzzy.
 

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2016, 04:06:46 pm »
Yea, I wouldn't even say that Earwa has what we call "heaven". There is a quote at the beginning of a chapter, "I've heard the screams of hell and the sighs in heaven, trust me brother when I say there is nary a difference.". Paraphrasing obviously.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2016, 04:11:49 pm »
I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point, but I've gotta ask the Zaudunyani here: What does saving the world/humanity even mean?

As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

I think Kellhus's plan is to shut the Outside, but by some other means than reducing the population, and defeating the Consult. I'd even go as far as saying Kellhus might not want to shut the Outside, but defeat the 100 and become/resurrect The God.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2016, 02:53:40 am »
So what I'm still getting is: 1. We don't know if Kellhus intends to save the world. 2. We don't really even know what that means if he it was what he intended anyway.

I've gotta say, it looks to me like he just abandoned his ordeal to the best surrogate he could make on short notice because, blind as he was to what moved him, he found that once he left he couldn't stand to be parted overlong from his Empire and whatever inhuman approximation of love he has for his wife. The trial has broken him. Moenghus did nothing wrong. Etc etc