[TGO Spoilers] Why did he return?

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Yellow

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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2016, 05:57:45 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.

While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted."  No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words.  Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.

Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.

ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 05:59:33 pm by Yellow »
You are the fist that beats us.

Parsh

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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2016, 06:07:59 pm »
I agree with Yellow here.

To the original question, I'm wondering if perhaps Kellhus wasn't so much abandoning the empire as he was appearing to abandon the empire to draw out his enemies, so that he could come back as he did and efficiently wipe them out. Granted, he seems to have just plain gotten lucky (so to speak) with this White Luck Warrior business. But still. It would have been a lot of work to deal directly with the Yatwer cult, the rebellion in Kian, and Zeum not being totally on board. So he leaves under the "while the cat's away the mice will play" theory, and then boom! He's back to tie up all the loose ends.

Granted, the fact that the timing of this worked out so well is a bit tough to credit even for Kellhus, but maybe it's just one more thing we have to accept about Kellhus's abilities.

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2016, 06:28:28 pm »
Drawing out his enemies is something. But then there still must be a reason for doing that. I just don't know what's so important that he had to return in order to save.

I think that something didn't go as planned up north, and he needed something from back home which he left there as a contingency. Could have been any number of things, could have even been Maithanet or Theli, who are now both dead and useless to him.

His return doesn't necessarily mean everything is falling into place for him. I think its safe to assume that Kellhus regularly reevaluates his plan so that it is likely to succeed - whatever success means. That doesn't mean that everything is conditioned ground. I'd think that he would have learned a bit from his Father's mistake and left open some contingency plans in case something major went wrong.
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MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2016, 07:11:13 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.

While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted."  No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words.  Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.

Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.

ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.

You are the fist that beats us.

Well, you're contradicting yourself in your own response. Your saying Kellhus faked Bering tired to Esme when he travelled all the way from the Ordeal. Yet, weary, just means tired when he travels back in TGO. Kellhus has never seemed "tired" at anytime I can recall, he is superhuman. He is weary because of the twists, turns and constant head games he has to play, in order to reach his goal. There are bits and pieces throughout TSA that show that Kellhus had these emotions and are what motivate him, he just doesn't ruminate on them because he doesn't think he should have them. One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult? He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen. He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity, that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Hogman

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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2016, 07:52:42 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.

While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted."  No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words.  Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.

Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.

ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.

You are the fist that beats us.

Well, you're contradicting yourself in your own response. Your saying Kellhus faked Bering tired to Esme when he travelled all the way from the Ordeal. Yet, weary, just means tired when he travels back in TGO. Kellhus has never seemed "tired" at anytime I can recall, he is superhuman. He is weary because of the twists, turns and constant head games he has to play, in order to reach his goal. There are bits and pieces throughout TSA that show that Kellhus had these emotions and are what motivate him, he just doesn't ruminate on them because he doesn't think he should have them. One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult? He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen. He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity, that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!

I think you've misread the responses here, MSJ. It was me who said Kellhus was merely tired, not Yellow.

All Kellhus needs is to put his feet up for a while with a nice cup of tea.  :)

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2016, 08:06:54 pm »
Not sure about this whole weary vs. tired debate. Not going to get involved :P


... in order to reach his goal...
Exactly. All things to reach his goal. What goal though? We're not sure.

One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult?
Well, if his goal is to kill the Consult, its probably that he determined that TGO was the best way to do that. Joining them may not have been an option. Too many unknowns that route regardless.

He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen.
I'll give this one a maybe. The scholastic wars ended devastatingly for the schools. There are a lot of chorae around, doing that himself would be tough, even with one or several schools. Easier to send the entire population of men into the wilderness and have them killed by endless sranc.

He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity,
He's got a job to do for sure. For humanity? We'll see.

that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!

A world without the Consult seems like a goal of his. Though, imo, its just as likely to be for his own gains than it is for some altruistic reasoning like "killing damnation"

All Kellhus needs is to put his feet up for a while with a nice cup of tea.  :)
"Tea" = Chanv laced anpoi.
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MSJ

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« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2016, 09:11:05 pm »
@Hogman, yes I know. Just quoted the Whole thing. I get that we're picking up what each other is putting down! :)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2016, 11:20:31 pm »
When I said this during the podcast, there were a few snickers and then quiet.

ROFL we are so fucking awkward on the casts sometimes. You definitely got the last laugh though, MSJ. Even if the return for Esmi is a cover for something deeper, you still read the signs right and his return at least validates that line of thinking for now.

The only reason I don't personally subscribe to it is because there's just so many contradictions, so I defer to Occam's Razor - the only thing I know for sure is that Kellhus is trying to achieve selfhood. Everything else is too much of a leap for me until we get more evidence.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2016, 06:18:09 am »
Kellhus has been physically exhausted and mentally bordering on despondent multiple times in the first trilogy. I have no difficulty believing some tasks are arduous for him now as well. Super-human doesn't mean omnipotent.

Doubt

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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2016, 12:49:21 pm »
Kellhus has been physically exhausted and mentally bordering on despondent multiple times in the first trilogy. I have no difficulty believing some tasks are arduous for him now as well. Super-human doesn't mean omnipotent.
I agree 100%. Teleportation takes a huge toll on the body/mind. Serwe could only teleport 2x a day. Kellhus would have had to do it several times a day to get ~2000 (or is it ~3000?) miles back to Momemn. And Kellhus is getting older. He is superhuman but he also needs food, water, rest.

On the topic of his emotions, I'm leaning towards the idea that he bummed Proyas out of his own desire rather than as part of his plan. He definitely considered the consequences of it and decided it wouldn't be harmful to Proyas' conditioning and so Kelly could get all up in his "most beautiful servant".

It was clever of Bakker when he revealed that Kellhus went mad on the Circumfix, and that he's being afflicted by the meat. How much does it affect his judgement, his emotions? Makes him more unpredictable.
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Yellow

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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2016, 01:40:30 pm »
But he also teleported back from the Ordeal at the end of this book (which was much further away) , and had enough energy to do everything he did.

Also, why would Serwa's limitations be any indication at all of Kellhus'?

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Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2016, 11:49:02 pm »
Yeah, Serwa is not kellhus. Her limits are not his.

Kell might be tired after teleports, but even the very first time he does it, in ttt, he kills a bunch of primaries and jumps like a half dozen times.

In addition, could be that Kellhus took a couples days to get from the ordeal to the city. Took a nice picknik before jumping in to save the day. We have no idea. The timestamps in the books are suspect.
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Doubt

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« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2016, 12:51:26 am »
I doubt it takes much time for a Dunyain to recover. A good nights sleep and a warm meal before jumping into the middle of an enemy camp sounds like something he might do. I wonder did he bring any scranc meat with him...

Serwa is the only other person in Earwa capable of the metagnosis and is half Dunyain. The half bloods seem to have much more strength than humans considering Kelmomas' acrobatics and overpowering of grown men (he did surprise them but still he's like 5). Considering it tires her out so, and considering Kellhus is not excused from bodily worries, you'd imagine he'd be tired from his long trek from Dagliash to Momemn. I mean, come on guys it's not like he's a god or anything hahaha
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2016, 06:37:17 am »
He nearly died in the Wilderness outside Ishual, right off. Being bound to the Circumfix had the kind of mental and physical side effects one would expect of a more normal human being (even if we assume all the "No-God" visions are genuine visions and 100% real). The distance from the Great Ordeal to Momemn is tremendous. Further, I don't think Kellhus does, generally, deliberately cultivate an appearance of vulnerability around Esmenet anymore. She notices on her own, and has done so at times against his will, starting in Warrior Prophet.

Kellhus's mule children and half brother are not at all perfect models for Kellhus, granted. But until recently, they were the only models we had outside his own PoV. Now though, we have his son. Who suffered tremendously and began to go mad during the war beneath Ishual.

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« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2016, 03:18:12 pm »
Quick aside, how do they define madness? Believing in their own power-trips? Turning into a normie?
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”