Proyas and the No-God

  • 17 Replies
  • 11673 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« on: September 18, 2016, 05:35:36 pm »
Just started a re-read of TGO and trying to fathom Kellhus' motives with his re-working of Proyas throughout the book (the head on a pole still makes no more sense to me than before).

Kellhus needs to retrain Proyas' faith in order for him to do something that he would otherwise never do. First, he de-humanises the God (It rather than He) and then "villainises" the God (our damnation is the God's harvest). He also completely breaks Proyas down by admitting that he (Kellhus) is a fraud and everything Akka said he was.

Why? Why does he do this?

He does not need to re-program Proyas if his only goal is the destruction of Golgotterath and the Consult. Proyas would already be more than happy to do this. What does he need from  him that a) Proyas would otherwise never have done, and b) serves Kellhus' ultimate aim (whatever that is), perhaps in his absence?

So, I think Proyas will be the one to "release" or at least allow the release of the NG. What else could it be?

Kellhus needs the NG to close off the outside (I also believe either he or Kayutas, probably the latter due to the symmetries with Nau-Cayuti, will become the NG). Proyas will act to bring it about. I can't think of any other task that would be so anathema to Proyas and require him to be broken down so severely.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 05:38:39 pm by Yellow »
You are the fist that beats us.

Doubt

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2016, 11:12:01 pm »
This was what I gathered from the whole Kelly - Proyas tutoring. However I'm hesitant to believe it. Mostly because I want Kellhus to be good, but also because it sort of betrays Kellhus' later actions; running home to salvage what he can as soon as the ordeal is safe from the horde. Unless the outside can somehow be shut without the specified number of souls.
Despite my desires to the contrary, I think Kellhus has a devious plan concerning the no god that Proyas will somehow enact with his newfound knowledge or... Something. There are so many variables that couldn't be accounted for, like the nuke.

Cuts and cuts and cuts

Slight addendum sorry am drunk
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 11:17:49 pm by Doubt »
Cuts and cuts and cuts.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 12:22:48 am »
@Yellow, :slow claps:!!!!

That is an excellent, well thought out theory, for the purpose of breaking down Proyas the way Kellhus has. We know we're going to see the No-God walk, and using Proyas as a catalyst for that is just great. The devout religious follower, who is told everything he has ever believed is wrong, and helps to bring about what he thought he would be a part of destroying. I love it. Would love it twice as much of he goes in the Carapace.

[edit=Wilshire]: fixed reference
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:09:01 pm by Wilshire »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 03:13:09 am »
Hi Yellow!  Hi Doubt!

Welp, whatever's going on I can't shake it from my head that Bakker is going to be doing some parallels with the lead up to Jesus' death (Golgotterath/Golgotha).  So maybe Proyas is being molded into Kellhus' Judas-role?

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2016, 03:42:33 am »
Kellhus leaves Proyas with the most fun problem--not only is the Great Ordeal going to have to eat itself, sorcerers and witches are going to be eating zaudunyani.  The rank and file won't be happy!  What a headache for management!  What do you bet Kellhus shows up right when more sranc/food arrives? 

It will be interesting to see what Kellhus does to Proyas in front of the GO to mend things.  Would Kellhus eat Proyas as 'punishment'?  Or offer him to be eaten?

While we're on the subject, maybe a big twist will be that Kellhus outdoes Jesus and literally gives himself as sustenance for salvation?

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 06:01:05 am »
This was what I gathered from the whole Kelly - Proyas tutoring. However I'm hesitant to believe it. Mostly because I want Kellhus to be good, but also because it sort of betrays Kellhus' later actions; running home to salvage what he can as soon as the ordeal is safe from the horde. Unless the outside can somehow be shut without the specified number of souls.
Despite my desires to the contrary, I think Kellhus has a devious plan concerning the no god that Proyas will somehow enact with his newfound knowledge or... Something. There are so many variables that couldn't be accounted for, like the nuke.

Cuts and cuts and cuts

Slight addendum sorry am drunk
I think he has figured out how to do it without the reduction in souls... But he still needs Mog to achieve it somehow. So he needs rid of the Consult to get his hands on it.
You are the fist that beats us.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 09:04:29 pm »
It will be interesting to see what Kellhus does to Proyas in front of the GO to mend things.  Would Kellhus eat Proyas as 'punishment'?  Or offer him to be eaten?

Or maybe he found out the recipe for Mog requires a living sarcophagus (flesh-eater in ancient Greek, as someone mentioned somewhere on this forum) is in this case: Proyas to awaken as the No-God after having been eaten. That would be a moment of dread.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Callan S.

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Warrior-Profit
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
    • Philosopher Gamer
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 02:39:24 am »
Maybe it's like highlander and you get the powaz of those you eat and all those they ate before them?

I really shouldn't be reading these threads - 6 more days to go until the bookshop should have TGO...

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 03:38:49 pm »
@Wilshire, :slow claps:!!!!

?

My guess is that he needs Proyas to betray both him (Kellhus) and It (God), for some purpose. A piece of it, I think, is preparing  Proyas to lead, and especially to prepare him for the eating of the host.

I think it makes Proyas a contingency plan in the event that Kellhus himself breaks and deviates from the Path.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 04:06:04 pm »
@Wilshire, :slow claps:!!!!

?

My guess is that he needs Proyas to betray both him (Kellhus) and It (God), for some purpose. A piece of it, I think, is preparing  Proyas to lead, and especially to prepare him for the eating of the host.

I think it makes Proyas a contingency plan in the event that Kellhus himself breaks and deviates from the Path.

It could also be that Proyas needs to be conditioned to "accept" Akka's return?  Or welcome it, perhaps?

As my crack-pot theories simmer, I am coming more and more to believe that The Tousand-fold Thought is impossible to understand as individual gears moving.  Each is unimportant, in a sense, except for where they meet and what turns based on that. 

To be more  clear, I mean that each moving part can't really be understood outside of context of the whole.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:08:18 pm by H »
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 04:22:34 pm »
@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Titan

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2016, 04:38:59 pm »
@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.

I thought it was Yellow (the OP) that suggested that, not Wilshire? (unless you are referring to a previous conversation I'm not aware of)

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2016, 04:40:42 pm »
@Wilshire, I was referring to you suggesting that he is conditioning him to be apart of releasing the NO-GOD.

I thought it was Yellow (the OP) that suggested that, not Wilshire? (unless you are referring to a previous conversation I'm not aware of)

Oh, my bad. I got confused there. Well, @Yellow, I like it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2016, 05:09:37 pm »
I had nothing to do with this. All praise should be heaped upon Yellow!
One of the other conditions of possibility.

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2016, 05:11:13 pm »
I remember someone raising that possibility before somewhere but I can't recall who, when and where.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”