Kellhus's Visions

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MSJ

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« on: September 29, 2016, 10:36:12 pm »
So, here recently, I have became very interested in Kellhus's visions of the tree and the Monk. We see in TGO that it seems that its Kellhus. Which at face value might be true. But, Moenghus is described as the spitting image of Kiellhus, just bald and eyeless. Now, what he would look like in the Outside might be very different than when he was alive and the time of his death. The same can be said of Koringhus. Those are the only options i see. I think whoever it is, they have escaped damnation, which is why I include Koringhus, even though his part was small, after joining the Absolute he would have access to all of time. Here is the first vision Kellhus has on the Circumfix. I will add the rest in order as I find them, or if any of you would like to help, please do. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on who it is and their motivations.

Quote
Something dropped within him, and he tumbled into sleep, cold water rinsing bruised and broken skin. Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth. A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright. The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest. And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night. And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies. And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day. Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth … WHAT DO YOU SEE? The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast. TELL ME … Whole worlds wailed in terror. The Warrior-Prophet awoke, his skin tingling against a dead woman’s cheek … More convulsions. Father! What happens to me? Pang upon pang, wresting away his face, beating it into a stranger’s. You weep.

Okay, first off, as I said whoever it is has avoided damnation and trying to steer Kellhus in a certain direction. One clue here that leads me to Kellhus, is the legs of a beast. Has the Meat consumed made him part beast and that transformation shows in the Outside? Also, Locke brought this to my attention, but the tree could be a entity also. Locke suggested Koringhus, which is a viable option if we take into consideration how he died. Basically, to make a long story short, to be one with nature. Two more options exist in my mind. Onkis, who is shown to be part woman, part tree. Also, Kellhus is seated in front of the tree, can anyone say a head on a pole behind you? The other option, The God. And this could connect to all the tree imagery that has been brought up throughout the entirety of the series.  Just some quick thoughts and I will find and add the other visions of the same style thats throughout the books. Others feel free to add them if you have them highlighted in your Kindle. And please, would love to hear others thoughts.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2016, 06:33:43 am »
Interesting idea.
Quote from: MSJ
Also, Kellhus is seated in front of the tree, can anyone say a head on a pole behind you?
Clearly. The tree is also a recurring theme in TWP and TTT (visions, the Circumfix, Kiyudea).
The Circumfixion is possibly the moment where Kellhus's head is raised on the pole (= he is been sacrificed) Anarlu-style. But how this works, I have no clue.
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Yellow

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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2016, 10:05:32 am »
Good catch with the quote, MSJ. I think the correlation between the tree behind him and Onkis's head/tree/pole aspect is too strong for it to be anyone or anything else. Bakker was also as explicit as he could realistically be that the figure is Kellhus (he has his face).
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H

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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2016, 12:06:39 pm »
I think there is a difference between the Head on a Pole and the visions.  Geoffrobro had a very interesting idea on the Head that was unfortunately lost in The Cast That Is No Longer a Cast so I'll try to summarize his point as best I can remember in the thread for it.

As for the Visions, I think there is some parallel between Suabon having seen himself, cast back, as he was dying and Kellhus' visions.  I venture to speculate that perhaps that is a major clue to build upon, proof that the Principle of Before and After is well and false when it comes to the Outside leaking into the Inside. 

This is what I believe happened on the Circumfix: through the near death experience and cipher* of Serwe, Kellhus is open to the Outside.  In that moment, Kellhus himself comes to him and at that moment, the vision of the future is that of Kellhus becoming or being under the influence of the No-God, that is, that Consult wins.  Why?  Well, we might get an answer in the form of what Kellhus tells Moe when he kills him.  He says that Moe would choose to join the Consult.  So, as such, perhaps the vision speaking with the No-God's voice is the warning.  Kellhus will be the No-God if Moe is allowed to live.  Notice, the vision, as far as we see, never actually tells Kellhus to kill Moe.  However, he says in TGO that the voice in the vision did tell him as much.  So, it wasn't a straightforward command, but rather a dire warning about the path he was on.  I put a good bit of weight in that scene where Kellhus ponders the twig at Kyudea, which is a cast back to the twig of the prologue.  It is here, the warning from the vision that he sees the branching of the path and chooses the one that leads to the death of Moe.

Now, cast it forward, Moe is dead, Kellhus has averted that future, so the vision is different now.  The war is somewhat beyond that of simply Kellhus versus the Consult.  Now, the stakes are higher, or at least different, it isn't just about averting the No-God, it's about warring against the Hundred.  It's about ending damnation all together, without the No-God.  It's about Kellhus being the Zero-God, the Absolute.

In TGO, Kellhus tells us that the Voice is not sane.  He tells us he doesn't trust it.  But he still listens.  Why?  Because what it tells him is correct.  What it tells him from the future happens.  Kellhus directs himself from the future.  Before and After is sane.  The voice is beyond that.  We've asked ourselves time and again, why this, or that?  What allow Akka to live?  Why allow Fanayal to live?  Why the Great Ordeal?  Why everything with Proyas?

The answer to all of these doesn't lie in the past, it lies in the future.  It's not about what happened to lead Kellhus to choose this path.  It's about what all of them will do in the future.  Akka had to be free, because Mimara would run to him.  He would impregnate her.  She would have the Judging Eye then.  Fanayal lives and so Mommen is destroyed.  Why disillusion Proyas?  Because he needs to be a doubter, probably to accept Akka when he bring Mimara.  All of these things are key for some reason.  We can't see exactly why just yet, but we are drawing toward them.  The future is the key.

This also explains that lack of "definitive Kellhus" in a way.  Why were all the Dunyain kids unable to fathom Kellhus' personality?  Why did Theli conclude that, "There is no such man as Anasûrimbor Kellhus … No such Prophet. Only an intricate web of deceptions and stratagems … bound by one inexorable—and as you know, quite ruthless—principle."  This is because Kellhus is as directed as those he directs.  He is both a cog in the wheel of The Thousand-fold Thought and it's engine.  Why is he working so hard on Salvation?  Because he knows that if he fails, he too is Damned.

*Bakker said (and I can't find the quote at this moment) that Serwe is an important cipher in the series.  I was curios, so I looked up the definition of the word and was a bit surprised to find:



#2 of which is of particular importance, considering what we now know of The Absolute in relation to Zero and the Zero god.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2016, 02:44:56 pm »
I don't think it's Koringhus. He has been absorbed into the absolute and isn't coming back unless it is the God in his form... Honestly I just think it's Kellhus. The impression I got was that the God doesn't give a fuck what happens.

Serwe would be very holy, going by Koringhus' revelations. She did not consider TDTCB but embraced her feelings for Kellhus and Esmi without much thought, sort of like how Koringhus saved his son from the Sranc without thought. She was very much a movable soul. I'd say she would have been saved and brought into the Absolute, despite Kelly saying otherwise to Proyas.
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2016, 04:23:51 pm »
@H... Just a quick point - I think you're reading too much into the definition of cypher. Literature is filled with cypher characters, and I think the link to the concept of zero is coincidental.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2016, 04:24:57 pm »
Quote from: H
Now, cast it forward, Moe is dead, Kellhus has averted that future, so the vision is different now.  The war is somewhat beyond that of simply Kellhus versus the Consult.  Now, the stakes are higher, or at least different, it isn't just about averting the No-God, it's about warring against the Hundred.  It's about ending damnation all together, without the No-God.  It's about Kellhus being the Zero-God, the Absolute.

It reminds of a few things:
- The game-changing rules of Benjuka, which is mentioned regularly, at least in TPoN
- Forks becoming void because the cause had become impossible, as the Synthese mentions to the Skin-Spy in WLW (when talking about respecting all prophecies) , and the general way of working of the Probability Trance.

Quote from: H
In TGO, Kellhus tells us that the Voice is not sane.  He tells us he doesn't trust it.  But he still listens.  Why?  Because what it tells him is correct.  What it tells him from the future happens.  Kellhus directs himself from the future.  Before and After is sane.  The voice is beyond that.  We've asked ourselves time and again, why this, or that?  What allow Akka to live?  Why allow Fanayal to live?  Why the Great Ordeal?  Why everything with Proyas?

I've had about the same feeling in the Throne Room scene with the two scenes where Kellhus lives and dies, but through the perspective of Kelmomas. The sentence "Something's wrong" uttered by the Voice is the main cause for that. It feels like Kelmomas is being guided in the same way as Kellhus, though I can't pinpoint how.

I'm not sure there is no relation between the head on a pole and the visions though. In my view, both the head on a pole and the visions have to do with death.
For the first, we know Kellhus starts having visions and hearing the voice after either almost dying himself, or the death of Serwë. I was not aware of the meaning Zero for Cypher, thanks!
For the latter we have the information that the Voice's first words come after the death of Samarmas and are something like "took you long enough".
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MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2016, 04:31:13 pm »
Well, from Q&A at Westeros we now know the head on a pole behind you, is NOT Onkis. Bakker confirmed that.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2016, 04:44:00 pm »
@H... Just a quick point - I think you're reading too much into the definition of cypher. Literature is filled with cypher characters, and I think the link to the concept of zero is coincidental.

You are no doubt correct.  An yet, there it is still...  ;)

It reminds of a few things:
- The game-changing rules of Benjuka, which is mentioned regularly, at least in TPoN
- Forks becoming void because the cause had become impossible, as the Synthese mentions to the Skin-Spy in WLW (when talking about respecting all prophecies) , and the general way of working of the Probability Trance.

Indeed, I think the benjuku allusion is pretty salient, given how it is presented to us.  I have just never been able to articulate it properly.

I've had about the same feeling in the Throne Room scene with the two scenes where Kellhus lives and dies, but through the perspective of Kelmomas. The sentence "Something's wrong" uttered by the Voice is the main cause for that. It feels like Kelmomas is being guided in the same way as Kellhus, though I can't pinpoint how.

I'm not sure there is no relation between the head on a pole and the visions though. In my view, both the head on a pole and the visions have to do with death.
For the first, we know Kellhus starts having visions and hearing the voice after either almost dying himself, or the death of Serwë. I was not aware of the meaning Zero for Cypher, thanks!
For the latter we have the information that the Voice's first words come after the death of Samarmas and are something like "took you long enough".

I'm pretty sure that the head on the pole doesn't have to do with death, a la, geoffrobro's theory and Bakker's "clarification" but I am a bit short on time to expand on that at the moment.  I will though, soon.

Further, I really should have clarified that my above theory is no doubt wrong.  However, it might be somewhat right in a round-about way.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 05:01:23 pm »
The head on the pole has to be Onkis though, right? The similarity to Onkis's aspect (according to the wiki) is just too close to be otherwise.
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MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 05:38:22 pm »
The head on the pole has to be Onkis though, right? The similarity to Onkis's aspect (according to the wiki) is just too close to be otherwise.

You would think that, but Bakker said it was not. Also, said the Nonmen did not shatter the God to create the 100, The God did.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2016, 05:55:50 pm »
Right, where is this said? I think I've missed that interview. Quick!
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Hiro

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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 06:01:37 pm »
Mystery denotes darkness

Yellow

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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2016, 06:21:45 pm »
Firstly, nice one Hiro, thanks.

Secondly... Holy fuck! Some serious info to absorb. I need to read the shit out of that thread.

Thirdly, he's lying. The window may have been inspirational for the pole, but basically he's dissembling by insinuating it is nothing more than imagery. Bakker doesn't do imagery, he does significance.

He doesn't want to give the twist away for TUC.
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Yellow

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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2016, 06:44:35 pm »
God damn it, that thread is kicking my arse. A scrap of Gnosis that Inrau clung to? Wtf?

ETA gah. Misreading it, with the run-on sentences. I'm  going to shut up and take the time to read it properly.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 06:47:03 pm by Yellow »
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