[TGO SPOILERS] Koringhus' hundred stones?

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profgrape

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« on: October 12, 2016, 05:29:38 pm »
I'm stuck.

I can't but help think there's some greater meaning in Koringhus' hundred, and later, ninety-nine, stones.  The connection to the Hundred and ninety-nine Sons, the fact that Mimara knows he collected them -- it just seems to add up to something.

The problem is, I can't really think of anything.  So I'm wondering if anyone on TSA has any ideas about this?


MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 06:54:35 pm »
I'm stuck.

I can't but help think there's some greater meaning in Koringhus' hundred, and later, ninety-nine, stones.  The connection to the Hundred and ninety-nine Sons, the fact that Mimara knows he collected them -- it just seems to add up to something.

The problem is, I can't really think of anything.  So I'm wondering if anyone on TSA has any ideas about this?

Maybe it's foreshadowing of Kellhus killing the 100? Or, he kills 99 and someone else kills the last one, maybe the No God represents the 100th?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 07:08:14 pm »
My initial thought was to, of course, connect the hundred stones to the Hundred Gods.  I think this is false though, in the sense that it only invokes them, not represents them.

In thinking further, when he gives the stone to the boy, he says:
Quote
He draws the hundredth stone from the waist of his tunic.
“This is yours now.”
The boy, the most blessed fraction, looks to him in alarm. He would deny the interval between them, if he could.
He cannot.

The boy is the fraction and Koringhus gives to him a fraction.  In other words, just like the One God, Koringhus is fractured into 100 pieces (the stones) and note how they are described pointedly as "One hundred stones, too round to lock one into the other."  Like the stones, the pieces of Koringhus cannot be put together, he is broken and worn, there is no putting the fractions back together because they don't add back up to One.

Instead, he gives the boy the last of himself.  The last piece.  The last fraction, because the boy is the embodiment of that final piece of Koringhus, the will to Survive.  He is, after all, the Survivor and I would guess that this last stone is representational of that final fraction, named The Survivor.

I'm not sure this makes sense and is probably wrong is large part, but essentially Koringhus is divided into all the fractions that we "hear" speak to him.  The stones represent all these fractions and they war with the world, each murdering, except that last one.  The last one is what Koringhus gives to the boy, not murder, as the other 99 were, but survival.  And true to form that stone is what allows the boy to survive.

Just made that up off the seat of my pants, but I think I might be on to something.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 07:26:10 pm »
Ninja'd by H :)

Also, note the quoted passage comes basically before the passage where Kellhus entrusts TGO to Proyas, his most faithful slave (can't find the exact wording right now). As if TGO is he hundredth stone: As if Proyas is finally ready, now that Saubon is dead, which (to me) confirms Saubon had to die at Dagliash.

Also note the passage on page 406 (italics are in the book):
Quote from: P.406
One hundred stones, too round to lock one into the other. Rounded like thumbs. THose on top warm for sunlight, like lobes or lozenges of living meat between the fingers. Those below chill, like the lips of the dead. Eyes scanning the coniferous gloom, isolating the ink of avian shadows. One hundred throws, arm snapping, sleeve popping, hand flicking ... A buzzing line, comprehended more in after-image than seen, spearing through the seams beween branches.
Ninety-nine birds struck dead. Numerous sparrows, doves, and more crows than anything else. Two falcons, a stork, and three vultures.
"Killing,"a  fraction explains to the wondering boy. "Killing connects me to what I am."
And what are you?
"The Survivor," another fraction repies, and yet another registers the network of scar tissue across his face, the tug and tension of unnatural compromises.
"The Heaper of the Dead".

Connect this to the Head on a Pole passage on page 44-46.
Mentioned are:
- Other Sons described as having animal features
- "The living shall not haunt the dead"

--
EDIT: Now that I re-re-re-reread the whole of page 406-407 multiple times in a row, it's stunning what happens when you use Cnaïur as a key to understand what happens there.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:42:18 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

MSJ

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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 08:54:35 pm »
Yea, Monkhound and H, that sounds right. The Koringhus parts of the book confused me more than anything else. But, your guys posts there makes a lot of sense. I think I'll re-read his sections with that in mind, it'll probably make things a lot clearer. Good shit, fellas.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 09:11:54 pm »
Building on other's comments, I believe the stones' purpose (as used by Koringhus) is to temporarily "blind the gods", so that his Absolution can be achieved without any of those nasty Hundred snatching him up. This of course relies on the theory that the gods see through the eyes of birds, which has enough supporting evidence at this point for me to take as legitimate. I also suspect that the type of bird correlates with the nature of the particular god (bellicose, compensatory, etc.), or if not that then perhaps simply a more direct bird-to-god connection. So, numerous sparrows are killed because sparrows are common, which is also true of crows -- though I imagine there's more to the crow thing given the heavy symboloism behind crows, the LOTR connections, and the in text mentioning of crows and doves "ending their feud", etc. The fact that storks have such an obvious connection with birth, and we already know they're a "window" for Yatwer, does suggest that different types of birds align with different gods. Crows being Gilgaol makes sense, and vultures could be Husyelt.

The 99th stone is a bit more obscure, but I believe H has the jist of it -- it wasn't used for outright murder, but survival, and I suspect that skinspies themselves could be a window for the No-God and/or Shauriatas.

Interestingly, the only other animal mentioned as being used for such a purpose are snakes -- forever tethered to the Ground, whilst all the other examples are birds. I have a theory that the No-God and Shauriatas are actually the same thing. The "water" of the Psukhe is an almost literal "stream of consciousness", one which possesses no Self. It is, perhaps, the equivalent of Limbo. So, the entity we know as Shauriatas is really a compound agency of ALL humans that purged themselves of a Self, meaning Shauriatas is not just Shaeonanra -- in fact it may not be Shaeonanra at all.

Serpents, primordial water, Shauriatas coveting the Earth...seems like a potential Satanic figure to me (in the form of "the Adversary"), especially if you equate the No-God as a Leviathan/World-Serpent manifestation. After all, we learned of a particular Psukhe/Gnosis wielding individual named Titiriga, who is sent plummeting deep into the earth...in a story entitled the False Sun, of all things.

This could also imply that Moenghus may, in fact, be a part of this compound entity known as Shauriatas. Seems to fit together rather nicely, and puts a very different spin on the confrontation between Kellhus and his pops at the end of TTT.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:33:39 pm by Ciphrank »

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 12:51:52 am »
FB, I like where you're going with the birds. Wonder who the Falcons represent in this theory?

ETA: one problem with your theory I have. If Koringhus uses the stones to "blind" the gods, it doesn't match up with how he came to the realization of the Zero God/Absolute. Didn't he deduce this through Mimara's JE and how it showed him that which come before determines what comes after to be false? He didn't understand this until his interactions with Mimara, right? Well, "the Singers" also proved it wrong too, I believe.

Question. Do any of you actually believe that Mimara truly forgave him and absolved him of his sins?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:57:15 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 10:30:51 am »
FB, I like where you're going with the birds. Wonder who the Falcons represent in this theory?

I considered the bird symbolism, but dropped it as I wrote my post, because I was afraid it was already bordering on nonsensical.

Thinking about it now though, I think each represents the aspect of the fractions that are, cut up, Koringhus:

Sparrow: "In Biblical times, a lone sparrow represented deep loneliness and sorrow, as sparrows are known to travel in clans. Sparrows are small but mighty and extremely vigilant in every aspect of their lives."

Dove: The fractions of Koringhus that would desire peace?

Crow: This one, the most plentiful we are told, is a bit more tricky and there are multiple ways to take this.  "To crow" is to boast, but I don't see Koringhus or most of the fractions as boastful, but I wouldn't discount it totally.  The crow also symbolizes a clairvoyance of sorts, which Koringhus does, as the start of the section about the stones, forsee his own death.  Further though, to "eat crow" is "humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong after taking a strong position" which considering what Koringhus is realizing about the Dunyain position, it seems right that there is more crow than anything.

Falcon: The hunter.

Stork: The modicum of holiness?  Or perhaps we should liken it to a motherly image, which happens to be holy?

Vulture: The scavenger.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 01:52:06 pm »
I'm stuck.

I can't but help think there's some greater meaning in Koringhus' hundred, and later, ninety-nine, stones.  The connection to the Hundred and ninety-nine Sons, the fact that Mimara knows he collected them -- it just seems to add up to something.

The problem is, I can't really think of anything.  So I'm wondering if anyone on TSA has any ideas about this?



I've tried to wring out meaning form this but haven't had any luck. Koringhus reads as fairly entirely mad to me. If you wanna talk about returning broken from the wilds, look no further than this guy.

I don't remember, does he collect the stones pre- or post- Consult invasion? If after, then I really think its something like OCD and he's just go problem. The Qirri is just an overdose for him, too much for his broken and fractured mind to handle, and he off's himself for no reason.

Like you said, there certainly seems to be some parallel between all the times 100 or 99 are used in the series, but nothing has ever solidified for me.

For some reason, I think that 100th stone that he gave to the boy was a chorae, but have no real backup for that.
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profgrape

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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2016, 02:52:53 pm »
*AWESOME* responses, folks!!!

Thinking back to how the Nonmen describe Yatwer as the "Fertility Principle", it might be that there are quite literally 100 discrete aspects to the fragmented God of Gods.  I'd always thought of The Hundred as a construct only.  But it might just be a fact.   

And it could be that Koringhus, in his brilliance (which I'm starting to believe surpasses even Kellhus) deduced this fact at some point, thus collecting the stones and killing the birds.

H

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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2016, 04:07:30 pm »
*AWESOME* responses, folks!!!

Thinking back to how the Nonmen describe Yatwer as the "Fertility Principle", it might be that there are quite literally 100 discrete aspects to the fragmented God of Gods.  I'd always thought of The Hundred as a construct only.  But it might just be a fact.   

And it could be that Koringhus, in his brilliance (which I'm starting to believe surpasses even Kellhus) deduced this fact at some point, thus collecting the stones and killing the birds.

Hmm, this has me thinking, if Koringhus' fracturing parallels the fracturing of God into the 100 (and that is a big if), does the method also parallel?

Recall:

Quote
Then the Word was spoken, and One became Many.
Doing was struck from the hip of Being.

So, in transitioning (or needing to transition) from simply a state of Being to a state of Doing is what lead to the fracture?  So, before the Siege of Ishual, Koringhus was whole, since he could simply Be.  However, when it came down to Doing and so needing all those different things, the scavenger, the hunter, etc, he was fractured into all the necessary parts.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2016, 04:16:28 pm »
For some reason, I think that 100th stone that he gave to the boy was a chorae, but have no real backup for that.

If it were a Chorae, wouldn't we have seen that confirmed through Achamian's POV? I expect he would have sensed it even before Mimara noticed Koringhus in the labor chambers (the term "laboratory" came to mind...  :-X).

*AWESOME* responses, folks!!!

Thinking back to how the Nonmen describe Yatwer as the "Fertility Principle", it might be that there are quite literally 100 discrete aspects to the fragmented God of Gods.  I'd always thought of The Hundred as a construct only.  But it might just be a fact.   

And it could be that Koringhus, in his brilliance (which I'm starting to believe surpasses even Kellhus) deduced this fact at some point, thus collecting the stones and killing the birds.

Since last night's realization, I'm thinking Koringhus is either the voice guiding Kellhus or the one guiding Kelmomas. At the top of page 406 he sees Achamian, Mimara and the boy watching him from the height from which he jumps 2 pages later. The moment he jumps, he becomes what has come before.
It's either that, or Koringhus is all of the incarnations of the Dunyain, which I still haven't discounted as a possibility.

Quote from: H
So, in transitioning (or needing to transition) from simply a state of Being to a state of Doing is what lead to the fracture?  So, before the Siege of Ishual, Koringhus was whole, since he could simply Be.  However, when it came down to Doing and so needing all those different things, the scavenger, the hunter, etc, he was fractured into all the necessary parts.

I concur: Some specific forms of Action/Doing seem important due to the repetitive pattern of the sequence immediately after Koringhus sees Achamian, Mimara and the boy on the heights (p. 406 again).

--
Edit: Also, last night's realization was the importance of Cnaïur in the chapter which culminates in Koringhus jumping off the ledge. The repetitive Cuts and cuts and cuts... reminded me of Cnaïur's uncountable swazond. In TDTCB we are told of the importance of swazond for the Scylvendi and what they represent. The rest trickles down from there.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 04:22:35 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Francis Buck

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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2016, 08:43:40 pm »
FB, I like where you're going with the birds. Wonder who the Falcons represent in this theory?

ETA: one problem with your theory I have. If Koringhus uses the stones to "blind" the gods, it doesn't match up with how he came to the realization of the Zero God/Absolute. Didn't he deduce this through Mimara's JE and how it showed him that which come before determines what comes after to be false? He didn't understand this until his interactions with Mimara, right? Well, "the Singers" also proved it wrong too, I believe.

Question. Do any of you actually believe that Mimara truly forgave him and absolved him of his sins?

I'm basically convinced that Koringhus was genuinely absolved and became one with Oblivion (which is also the Darkness That Come Before, and Onkis, and the Head on the Pole...)

In fact I think many characters attain Absolution throughout the series (Inrau, for example), and I actually think Kellhus is systematically absolving as many people as possible. But of course, not all can escape Damnation.

If you mean whether Mimara, herself, actually absolved him -- I would also say yes, with the disclaimer that Mimara's ability to absolve someone (or do anything else for matter) is indistinguishable from the will of the God, because God is everything. Truly everything. The great war of the series is the God warring with itself (or fucking itself, whichever you prefer, as I think they are one and the same on a metaphysical level).

---------

In regards to the strange and fragmentary nature of Koringhus: I don't believe he's "literally" fragmented into many portions (although given the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, the notion what is or is not literal kinda gets weird, and I actually could get into a whole diatribe on this but that's for another thread). Koringhus, as a result of his Dunyain genetics, training, and then the extended challenge of the Siege of Ishual, was sort of primed to understand what God is and how Absolution works. Is he insane, broken by his trials? Of course. But madness in Earwa is fundamentally different from our own understanding of it. Being insane (or "broken") is how people grasp the true nature of Earwa's reality, or part of it anyway. Madness opens ones mind to the Outside, as we've been told repeatedly.

The "fragments" of Koringhus are competing thoughts -- and where do thoughts come from? The darkness that comes before. Koringhus's trials have already pushed him to the limit, and having existed for so long in a life of utter survival has nearly severed his sense of Self, the illusion that he (or anyone or anything else) is somehow separate from the rest of reality. This ties in with real world accounts of people who spend long periods of solitude in the wilderness experiencing a degree of dissolution of the Self, and one even link the Boy to the historical notion of a "feral child" -- only he's a Dunyain feral child. 

So, the reason Koringhus is having these bizarre sensations of being in another spot, or when HE feels the grass brushing against his SON's skin, are all because he is coming to terms with an understanding of how he is but a part of the Whole. And the Absolute is the Whole. It's all of existence (and non existence, which are the same or, rather, codependent aspects of same thing)...which is the God.

-----

H. - Good thoughts on the bird symbolism. Falcons definitely make more sense as vessels for Husyelt, whereas vultures could perhaps be vessels for gods like Famine and Disease -- "scavengers" taking the scraps that Husyelt (falcons) and Gilgaol (crows) leave behind.

I definitely think dove's symbolize peace (groundbreaking concept there, right?) and crows equate to war -- the offhand remark near the end of the TGO about the "feud" between them finally ending" is a sign of the Apocalypse because in the fucked up reality of Earwa, war and peace are one and the same, just as death and oblivion is one with enlightenment.

-----

Monkhound - I didn't catch it the first time, but I fully agree that the repetition of "Cuts and cuts and cuts..." is not only a foreshadowing of the Cnaiur reveal at the end, but the entirety of the final Achamian/Mimara POV section is a cipher for understanding the nature of the God and how Damnation works in Earwa.

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 12:13:56 am »
Curious FB, how do you come to the conclusion that Kellhus is systematically absolving people from damnation? I don't see the textual evidence for it, that he has already done so. I believe that's his goal though, to end damnation.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2016, 10:36:29 am »
In regards to the strange and fragmentary nature of Koringhus: I don't believe he's "literally" fragmented into many portions (although given the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, the notion what is or is not literal kinda gets weird, and I actually could get into a whole diatribe on this but that's for another thread). Koringhus, as a result of his Dunyain genetics, training, and then the extended challenge of the Siege of Ishual, was sort of primed to understand what God is and how Absolution works. Is he insane, broken by his trials? Of course. But madness in Earwa is fundamentally different from our own understanding of it. Being insane (or "broken") is how people grasp the true nature of Earwa's reality, or part of it anyway. Madness opens ones mind to the Outside, as we've been told repeatedly.

The "fragments" of Koringhus are competing thoughts -- and where do thoughts come from? The darkness that comes before. Koringhus's trials have already pushed him to the limit, and having existed for so long in a life of utter survival has nearly severed his sense of Self, the illusion that he (or anyone or anything else) is somehow separate from the rest of reality. This ties in with real world accounts of people who spend long periods of solitude in the wilderness experiencing a degree of dissolution of the Self, and one even link the Boy to the historical notion of a "feral child" -- only he's a Dunyain feral child. 

So, the reason Koringhus is having these bizarre sensations of being in another spot, or when HE feels the grass brushing against his SON's skin, are all because he is coming to terms with an understanding of how he is but a part of the Whole. And the Absolute is the Whole. It's all of existence (and non existence, which are the same or, rather, codependent aspects of same thing)...which is the God.

Indeed, I am with you on the fragments of Koringhus being competing thoughts, but I still think this points to his personality (The Self, if you will) being fractured and compartmentalized.  Each fragment is a principle, for survival, for the boy's survival, etc.  In the same way that the God is fragmented into principles (to use the Nonman's term).  This is my I feel that Koringhus' hundred stones mirror the Hundred Gods, which mirror the divisions of himself.  Maybe, I don't know.

H. - Good thoughts on the bird symbolism. Falcons definitely make more sense as vessels for Husyelt, whereas vultures could perhaps be vessels for gods like Famine and Disease -- "scavengers" taking the scraps that Husyelt (falcons) and Gilgaol (crows) leave behind.

I definitely think dove's symbolize peace (groundbreaking concept there, right?) and crows equate to war -- the offhand remark near the end of the TGO about the "feud" between them finally ending" is a sign of the Apocalypse because in the fucked up reality of Earwa, war and peace are one and the same, just as death and oblivion is one with enlightenment.

Yeah, the crow part is definitely more confusing, because the symbolism of the crow is not nearly as cut-and-dry as any of the others.

Monkhound - I didn't catch it the first time, but I fully agree that the repetition of "Cuts and cuts and cuts..." is not only a foreshadowing of the Cnaiur reveal at the end, but the entirety of the final Achamian/Mimara POV section is a cipher for understanding the nature of the God and how Damnation works in Earwa.

Indeed, that is a good catch, there is no way that all the references to "cuts and cuts" is coincidental in a chapter that leads to Cnaiür's return.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira