[TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.

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H

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« on: December 13, 2016, 03:34:35 pm »
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 07:27:09 pm »
I actually never read the exchange as an admission of failure.
This scene requires the passage where Kellhus recounts what he saw while hanging from the tree in Caraskand to understand what happens here (the "vision between the stars" thing). Moënghus did not understand that Kellhus had pierced the veil allowing him to see the Head on a Pole, which Kellhus immediately understood from Mo's admission of the sentence "Your trial has broken you" (that is in the passage in Kyudea, in TTT).

The fascinating thing is that Kellhus listens, or at least acts on the commands of the Voice, without knowing is origins. Which suggests the Voice is something/someone more accomplished in bending someone to his will than himself.
Either that, or the arguments really are compelling.

But what the scene really tells us, in my opinion, is an admission of what Kellhus is doing both to Proyas and The Great Ordeal. Meaning: Reshaping them the way he was reshaped from scratch by the Voice, by driving them to the edge of sanity, in order to serve the new purpose they cannot fulfil in their current state.
- Proyas needs to be able to do the culling (and most likely much much worse than that)
- TGO needs to be enslaved, or at least mentally broken to fulfil some purpose that remains to be seen
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 08:54:59 pm »
I actually never read the exchange as an admission of failure.

Well, not a failure, but a mistake.  In other words, something he shouldn't have done.  But indeed, on the reread, I don't think he is saying even that.

This scene requires the passage where Kellhus recounts what he saw while hanging from the tree in Caraskand to understand what happens here (the "vision between the stars" thing). Moënghus did not understand that Kellhus had pierced the veil allowing him to see the Head on a Pole, which Kellhus immediately understood from Mo's admission of the sentence "Your trial has broken you" (that is in the passage in Kyudea, in TTT).

The fascinating thing is that Kellhus listens, or at least acts on the commands of the Voice, without knowing is origins. Which suggests the Voice is something/someone more accomplished in bending someone to his will than himself.
Either that, or the arguments really are compelling.

Well, I have, in other spots, thrown out the theory that the Voice he hears and is referring to, is his own in fact, but from the future.  This would explain why he mention he listened "in his disorder," that is that he was so disoriented from the visions that he failed to realize that the Voice, his own voice, was in fact not actually from himself.

But what the scene really tells us, in my opinion, is an admission of what Kellhus is doing both to Proyas and The Great Ordeal. Meaning: Reshaping them the way he was reshaped from scratch by the Voice, by driving them to the edge of sanity, in order to serve the new purpose they cannot fulfil in their current state.
- Proyas needs to be able to do the culling (and most likely much much worse than that)
- TGO needs to be enslaved, or at least mentally broken to fulfil some purpose that remains to be seen

A good point.  I had an inkling that he was attempting to dishearten, or sow disbelief in Proyas, but perhaps it is also to disorient them, in the sense that they would be so beyond what they could comprehend that they couldn't follow any path but the one Kellhus has put them on.  Not unlike what happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix, in the sense that he was then "open" to the Voice posing as his own, at a time when reason would be at an all time low and suggestibility at a high.

Interesting food for thought.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2016, 04:16:03 pm »
Well, I have, in other spots, thrown out the theory that the Voice he hears and is referring to, is his own in fact, but from the future.  This would explain why he mention he listened "in his disorder," that is that he was so disoriented from the visions that he failed to realize that the Voice, his own voice, was in fact not actually from himself.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Voice being Korringhus, of whom we know has grasped the Absolute (or maybe the Boy, but I think he has different role to play). I have still not read Kellhus has.
We know Kellhus has seen beyond the Veil, which could very well mean he is not the one behind it.

Quote
A good point.  I had an inkling that he was attempting to dishearten, or sow disbelief in Proyas, but perhaps it is also to disorient them, in the sense that they would be so beyond what they could comprehend that they couldn't follow any path but the one Kellhus has put them on.  Not unlike what happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix, in the sense that he was then "open" to the Voice posing as his own, at a time when reason would be at an all time low and suggestibility at a high.
I mentioned it in the Aörsi thread, I think: I think Saubon was ready to fulfil his task, based on the descriptions we receive from the atrocities committed during the Unification Wars. Saubon was broken during TPN and sent on his path. Proyas still isn't because Kellhus didn't need him to be ready until the Dagliash aftermath.

Quote
Interesting food for thought.
Clearly!

Edit: Also remember a Harbinger is a messenger... The one that comes before.
I also mentioned in the 100 stones thread (I think) that Korringhus breaks the cycle of Before and After when he jumps.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:22:27 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 04:53:10 pm »
Harbinger is no longer a thing in light of the new vision of the prophecy. There is no longer a harbinger, only the end of the world.
(being that by definition a harbinger is distinct in that it would tell of destruction, rather than being said destruction).


The Absolute for the dunyain is becoming a self moving soul. Korringhus perhaps saw the Absolute, or maybe a path to it, but I don't think be became The Absolute himself - or at least we don't know that he did.

I take the passage as an admission that killing his father was a mistake. You don't call yourself mentally unstable and use that as a justification of taking correct action.

As for who/what the Voice is ... I'm thinking its the same voice he heard on the Circumfix. What agency (person/place/thing/idea?) that might be, I don't know.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 06:33:10 pm »
I was thinking more along the lines of the Voice being Korringhus, of whom we know has grasped the Absolute (or maybe the Boy, but I think he has different role to play). I have still not read Kellhus has.
We know Kellhus has seen beyond the Veil, which could very well mean he is not the one behind it.

Very plausible.  Indeed, that was definitely my intial impression, that it was Koringhus.  But the scene of Saubon reaching back to himself just put me on the track that it was Kellhus himself.

I mentioned it in the Aörsi thread, I think: I think Saubon was ready to fulfil his task, based on the descriptions we receive from the atrocities committed during the Unification Wars. Saubon was broken during TPN and sent on his path. Proyas still isn't because Kellhus didn't need him to be ready until the Dagliash aftermath.

Indeed, both Saubon and Proyas are simply pawns for Kellhus.  As is everyone else.  In fact, this is something of a cornerstone of my theory, that the Voice is Kellhus and Kellhus himself is actually a pawn of himself.

The Absolute for the dunyain is becoming a self moving soul. Korringhus perhaps saw the Absolute, or maybe a path to it, but I don't think be became The Absolute himself - or at least we don't know that he did.

Well, I do believe that Korringhus achieved the Absolute, but I don't know what that actually means, since he achieved it in death.  My guess is he is still dead, but his soul is now free?  I don't even know what that means really.

I take the passage as an admission that killing his father was a mistake. You don't call yourself mentally unstable and use that as a justification of taking correct action.

That was my initial impression, but Kellhus is basically whelming Proyas here.  It would seem to me that Kellhus actually is "chastising" himself not for killing Moe, but rather for listening.  Perhaps the subtlety in the difference there is me reading too far in, but it seems that he is using Proyas' morality, that he would be abhorrent to the idea of patricide, to shock and horrify him.  I don't actually think that Kellhus regrets killing Moe.  In fact, I don't think there would ever have been a different way for the TTT (the Thought itself, not the book, per se) to play out, because Moe was wrong, there are violations of Before and After. 

He tells Proyas that Heaven is not sane.  Why isn't it?  Because the voice tells him insane things.  Things that shouldn't be possible, like Before and After being false, that killing Moe needs to be done, that allowing Akka to walk free is correct, that allowing Mommen to fall is the path to victory, along with letting Fanayal live all that time.  None of these things, on their own, make sense.  In fact, we have commented in the past how insane some of them seem.  Yet, it is how it needs to be.  Kellhus cannot have a rival (he must kill Moe), he must allow Akka to be "free" (to impregnate Mimara), let Fanayal live (it will draw out Yatwer in a round-about way), etc.  The Voice is not sane and it is not sane to listen to it (because how can you know what it says will be true?), but the Voice is right and it cannot be any other way.

As for who/what the Voice is ... I'm thinking its the same voice he heard on the Circumfix. What agency (person/place/thing/idea?) that might be, I don't know.

Definitely buying the Voice as the same throughout.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 04:19:18 am »
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.

THIS IS LIKE AN UPCOMING SHOW!  A DUNYAIN PANEL OF JUDGES EVISCERATE EARWAN SINGERS

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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 05:51:23 pm »
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.

For me, these "teaching moments" of Kellhus are fascinatingly difficult. In them, Kellhus has to be seen as the ultimate unreliable narrator. Here, as readers, we "believe" Kellhus is telling Proyas the "truth" while at the same time we know that Kellhus is shaping Proyas, "his most beautiful slave".

So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?

[EDIT Madness]: Quote tags.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:07:35 pm by Madness »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Monkhound

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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2017, 10:00:08 pm »
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 10:12:21 pm »
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

But Serwë was never similarly disillusioned, was she? I'm thinking the shaping of Proyas will lead to some amazing developments in TUC.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 10:13:39 pm »
Yeah but Serwe never had anything. And what was she the vessel for? (other than a vessel for Cnaiur / Moenghus ). Proyas is a King, he has everything, he still has everything except maybe faith . But who needs faith when you are wealth AF and everyone thinks you're god's right hand man.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 10:36:37 pm »
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

But Serwë was never similarly disillusioned, was she? I'm thinking the shaping of Proyas will lead to some amazing developments in TUC.

CAN CONFIRM

EDIT: EXCEPT I WOULDN'T SAY THAT "AMAZING" IS THE RIGHT WORD

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 10:57:04 pm »
Damn......well, I would imagine that "bowel-loosening" might  be closer to the mot juste......
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 10:12:51 pm »
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,