[TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2017, 01:35:46 pm »
mot juste......

That is an amazing word.

So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.

Forfeiture is loss, blindness the way the Cisharuim do it is also loss, and ignorance is willful unknowingness - which is almost a kind of loss. (distinct from naivete, which Serwe was the personification of).

As far as Ignorance as a measure for holiness, again Proyas does not fit that bill. He isn't ignorant, he's a friggin KING. The right-hand-man to GOD. If you want ignorant, take some schmuck the army. Or the poor old fools left back at home. Everyone in this series is ignorant of something, but the cabal of trusted advisor to Kellhus are not the foremost among them.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 01:51:40 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Monkhound

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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2017, 05:08:15 pm »
mot juste......

That is an amazing word.

The right word...

Quote
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.

Forfeiture is loss, blindness the way the Cisharuim do it is also loss, and ignorance is willful unknowingness - which is almost a kind of loss. (distinct from naivete, which Serwe was the personification of).

As far as Ignorance as a measure for holiness, again Proyas does not fit that bill. He isn't ignorant, he's a friggin KING. The right-hand-man to GOD. If you want ignorant, take some schmuck the army. Or the poor old fools left back at home. Everyone in this series is ignorant of something, but the cabal of trusted advisor to Kellhus are not the foremost among them.
Which makes him able to lose everything because he has everything. In addition, he's willing to do everything for Kellhus and Kellhus knows that.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2017, 06:46:14 pm »
But Kellhus can turn anyone into the perfect vessel. In fact, Kellhus does turn everyone into the tools he needs.

 Proyas isn't special in that he's the only one that could fulfill that role, he's special because Kellhus made him so. Kellhus might have spent every day since Shimeh grooming Proyas for this task/role, which is why he's the one that so perfectly fits this purpose now - but Kellhus could have done the same with anyone.

Proyas is just a person who was molded into exactly what Kellhus needed when he needed it. Everyone is a slave to Kellhus' will.
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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2017, 06:19:01 pm »
but Kellhus could have done the same with anyone
But wood is different from iron & bone? Proyas is a rare soul -- was tutored by Drusas Achamian, an heir to Conriya throne, a man in strong need of absolute truth and strong judgement.  I mean, even duniyains have limits, they have to work with what they have.

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2017, 06:31:25 pm »
The Mandate tutor many, many students, primarily the sons of wealthy, powerful men. The powerful and wealthy have sons who are heirs. Proyas is not special in that regard.

What makes a man need truth? Kellhus demonstrates over and over that All men desire truth, its how me controls. He explicitly says that small truths make men belive. Proyas, again, is not special.

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context. But we are told that  Kings with multiple heirs send their younger sons into the Thousand Temples. Lots of them, I'm sure, end up with a powerful need for judgement and faith. So, again and again, Proyas is just a Man.

Further, how many sons went on the Crusade? Many, many powerful households sent not just one son, but their entire lines. The Conriya house was not unique.

Nothing about Proyas is special, except that Kellhus chose him. He could have chosen any son from any of the neumerous powerful houses in the holy war. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 06:34:04 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2017, 08:56:24 pm »
The Mandate tutor many, many students, primarily the sons of wealthy, powerful men. The powerful and wealthy have sons who are heirs. Proyas is not special in that regard.
The accent was more on Achamian, less on a mandate. Guy bedded an empress when she was a whore and befriended the last king of Nonman when he was, kinda, a mumbling guide. I see a blind agent of Anangke spilling grey luck all over his unsuspecting kith. :3

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context.
Nope, in a secular. Like, a quite common asshat attitude. Proyas is especially talented at inflicting his opinion -- good quality for a duniyain instrument.


Also I feel like I`m failing in unfolding my point.

Proyas is special as a rare mix of useful and handy factors (good warrior, smart scholar, actually noble, have some backdoors into his thinking). There's better men and women to use instead of him, but most of them are just geographically unreachable or hard to find. There's worse men and women -- and they are out of the loop.

Maybe I can express what I`m thinking through comparison. It's like anthropic principle. If Kellhus chose some people, they are special. I dunno if there's actually more pristine definition of speciallness than to be used by duniyanin.

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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2017, 09:44:30 pm »
Well, and that Maithanet hand picked him to be a setup. Also, expressed a particular interest in Proyas' relationship with a Mandati, which he explicitly tried to leverage over PON to give Kellhus a spontaneous leg up over the Anagogis, as was likely originally planned by Moenghus and Maithanet by the specific inclusion of the Spires over the Saik.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2017, 11:57:06 pm »
Apologies, I was not in a position to reply earlier: But Simas summarises the reason quite solidly. In addition, the fact that Kellhus calls him his most loyal slave (not the exact words), stresses the importance of Proyas in his plans. He either has to lose everything, or enough to make him worthy of Becoming (stress on the capital for metaphysical implications) the second Ciphrang head at Kellhus's belt (imo. next to Saubon's).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2017, 12:30:35 am »
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context.
Nope, in a secular. Like, a quite common asshat attitude. Proyas is especially talented at inflicting his opinion -- good quality for a duniyain instrument.

lmao
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 12:34:17 am by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Athorn "FB" Gallizur

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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2017, 07:36:36 pm »
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

Now that's Classic Wilshire  ;). Kickass post.

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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2017, 12:57:42 am »
@Wilshire, "Also, Akka is not special". Blasphemy. He Is very special his dreams has sent him to being a major player to these end events of TUC. Though, I concede that Kellhus might be behind the dreams, I'm not totally sold. You're underestimating a man, who has been underestimated by himself and others this whole epic. I'd say he will be a very important hinge of events to unfold in TUC. Plus, I love the man.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 12:11:54 am »
Hey, I'm an Akka man all the way. If his dreams are some kind of divine intervention that has nothing to do with the dunyain, then I'll allow for him being special. Otherwise, everyone that has been around kellhus for a long time walks always on his conditioned ground.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 06:18:18 am »
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.

On a different note: Did we ever get an explanation why Kellhus thinks he can talk to Seswatha through Achamian?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 06:52:51 pm »
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.
If everyone always agreed, no interesting conversation would ever be had.

On a different note: Did we ever get an explanation why Kellhus thinks he can talk to Seswatha through Achamian?
Nope.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 08:31:15 pm »
Thought so... Well, looking forward to the reason  ;D
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