[TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.

  • 39 Replies
  • 4296 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2017, 11:10:14 pm »
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.
If everyone always agreed, no interesting conversation would ever be had.

That's why me and H are such good friends! :)

Yes, we have to disagree to even have a forum, ya know?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Athorn "FB" Gallizur

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2017, 12:00:56 am »
Yes, we have to disagree to even have a forum, ya know?

I disagree!

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2017, 12:59:17 pm »
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

I'm thinking that it is important to keep in mind the contingent aspect of Kellhus' quest. He has to use the tools at hand. As Kellhus is introduced to the Earwan ruling class, he chooses Proyas as a result of his scrutiny, the Probability Trance, and his search for the Shortest Path. His use of Cnauir was contingent, and the reverberations of that choice may still haunt Kellhus.

I believe that Kellhus chooses Proyas because he is the best tool for a certain project. So in that sense, he is special (and perhaps irreplaceable).
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2017, 01:47:46 pm »
Kellhus made tons of mistakes along the way, that's for sure, and he did the best he could with what was available. I forget what we were originally talking about lol... But i'll concede to Proyas being the best tool available at the time.

Though, the idea that he was being manipulated by Maithanet/Moenghus  for years before Kellhus got to him really appeals to me. Its a nice, long lasting connection to Moenghus.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2017, 03:54:53 pm »
Kellhus made tons of mistakes along the way, that's for sure, and he did the best he could with what was available. I forget what we were originally talking about lol... But i'll concede to Proyas being the best tool available at the time.

Though, the idea that he was being manipulated by Maithanet/Moenghus  for years before Kellhus got to him really appeals to me. Its a nice, long lasting connection to Moenghus.

I'm with you on that, Wilshire. To support your view, isn't it interesting that Akka becomes the tutor of Proyas? Akka, who just happens to be attached to Esmenet? Small world, Earwa.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2017, 05:11:50 pm »
I'm with you on that, Wilshire. To support your view, isn't it interesting that Akka becomes the tutor of Proyas? Akka, who just happens to be attached to Esmenet? Small world, Earwa.

And that Kellhus would meet Mekeritrig, of all people, along his way?  And come out in the same place as Cnaiur's father's burial mound?  Or Cnaiur would be there at that time?

So many coincidences, one might start to think there is no such thing...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2017, 05:39:14 pm »
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2017, 05:45:37 pm »
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Freud
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2017, 06:13:48 pm »
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Chekhov's Gun

Fixed the quote. Inserted more irony. Though a less ironic citation would have been MacGuffin
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 06:17:06 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2017, 08:02:36 pm »
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Chekhov's Gun Phaser

Fixed the quote. Inserted more irony. Though a less ironic citation would have been MacGuffin

Ah HA! A quote fixer! ...smdh...well played, sir!

"If a nuke appears in Dagliash in the first act....." no, I got nuthin'.....wait....here we go: I'm re-fixing the quote(adding a pop-culture reference). Your move ;-)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:58:39 pm by Beardfisher King »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson