[TGO SPOILERS] Meppa's Future Role?

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themerchant

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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 09:18:12 am »
I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.

Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening.  Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet.  Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.

While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them..

I don't think Kellhus is the mover, I think he realizes he isn't and that's why he knows how insignificant he really is, he's like a playing piece that has leveled all the way up but still doesn't make his own moves. The whole first triology is basically Moe apprehending the TTT, then making his move to bring Kellhus to the plate. Who follows a path which has ostensibly been laid out for him by Moe, but is actually him just following the "TTT" or "destiny". This is continued in the AE. The whole time from leaving Ishual he has been following the TTT, he was just ignorant of that fact for the majority of his inner monologue.

He thinks the steppe is trackless, but they're all actually on rails like train heading to one outcome that has already happened. 

I'll be doing a full re-read soonish before TUC, so will be on the look out for things that confirm or deny(wont remember the deny ones though :P :) this theory.

Also re-read the siege of Shimeh again, still thinking moe is running things behind the scenes, for another day though...

H

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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 11:23:35 am »
I don't think Kellhus is the mover, I think he realizes he isn't and that's why he knows how insignificant he really is, he's like a playing piece that has leveled all the way up but still doesn't make his own moves. The whole first triology is basically Moe apprehending the TTT, then making his move to bring Kellhus to the plate. Who follows a path which has ostensibly been laid out for him by Moe, but is actually him just following the "TTT" or "destiny". This is continued in the AE. The whole time from leaving Ishual he has been following the TTT, he was just ignorant of that fact for the majority of his inner monologue.

Well, I should have specified, the now Kellhus is a piece and future Kellhus is the mover.  But they are both him.  So, Kellhus is a pawn and the mover, just in a way that is both simultaneous and yet not.

He thinks the steppe is trackless, but they're all actually on rails like train heading to one outcome that has already happened.

Well, see here is where I think our thinking really diverges.  Pre-TGO this seemed likely.  Post-TGO however, knowing how Yatwer could not anticipate Kellhus, puts me more toward thinking that while the rails keep everyone on track, Kellhus is off those rails.  That isn't to say that he doesn't follow a path, but that path is not the rails we see, they are the path that the Voice bids him to forge.

I'll be doing a full re-read soonish before TUC, so will be on the look out for things that confirm or deny(wont remember the deny ones though :P) this theory.

Don't forget to wash it down with a tall glass of confirmation bias, it's the order of the day now,  :P

Also re-read the siege of Shimeh again, still thinking moe is running things behind the scenes, for another day though...

I still think there is more to unpack in the Kellhus-Moe confrontation, but it's been years and I still have nothing...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 01:46:41 pm »
Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 02:23:13 pm »
Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.

Good point.  In fact, I don't even think the Consult is separate.  If Kellhus really wanted to, he could take Golgotterath himself and avert the No-God (if the No-God is really even imminent).  But somehow they have a role to play too.  I think this is why Aurang seems so bumbling to us.  Everything he does is precedent, even what seems unprecedented because Kellhus (a la, The Thousandfold Thought) has their actions already accounted for.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 10:23:21 pm »
Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.

Good point.  In fact, I don't even think the Consult is separate.  If Kellhus really wanted to, he could take Golgotterath himself and avert the No-God (if the No-God is really even imminent).  But somehow they have a role to play too.  I think this is why Aurang seems so bumbling to us.  Everything he does is precedent, even what seems unprecedented because Kellhus (a la, The Thousandfold Thought) has their actions already accounted for.

How is the Consult not relevant to the point? Destroying them is what spurred the TT.... I know maybe I am a little too much on wether Kellhus emotions matter (though I have been convinced that TGO doesn't make decisions based on emotion, emotion spurred him to be more, to make the TT his, I won't back down from that.), some of you guys take it too far the opposite way. Where is there any textual evidence Kellhus wants to join the Consult? In fact, the opposite is true, the Consult must be exterminated for Kelhus to transcend, whatever that might be (half ape, half monk God of Earwa, I guess). He might make tools of the Consult and their mechanisms, he won't suffer their presence. I mean, what are we reading about here? If he wanted to join them he would make a few jumps and make some new friends. For whatever reason, the text seems to indicate the Consult wants nothing to do with him, prophecy or whatever I guess.

To answer my question, I believe Akka is an ally in Kellhus's own view of what a ally is. He let him live because he needed him, that much is for sure. Even in conquering Earwa, he did his best to make allies and not enemies. I'd say their is a distinct separation of the two in his mind. He made Malowebi choose, did he not? He offered to be allies, and look what "no" got Zeum. A demon-headed Malowebi coming to exterminate their line. So, I see that Kellhus sees them to be more than just tools. Life goes on after the Great Ordeal, after all. And, it is Holy!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 10:40:27 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2016, 11:15:19 am »
How is the Consult not relevant to the point? Destroying them is what spurred the TT.... I know maybe I am a little too much on wether Kellhus emotions matter (though I have been convinced that TGO doesn't make decisions based on emotion, emotion spurred him to be more, to make the TT his, I won't back down from that.), some of you guys take it too far the opposite way. Where is there any textual evidence Kellhus wants to join the Consult? In fact, the opposite is true, the Consult must be exterminated for Kelhus to transcend, whatever that might be (half ape, half monk God of Earwa, I guess). He might make tools of the Consult and their mechanisms, he won't suffer their presence. I mean, what are we reading about here? If he wanted to join them he would make a few jumps and make some new friends. For whatever reason, the text seems to indicate the Consult wants nothing to do with him, prophecy or whatever I guess.

Oh, indeed, it wasn't my intention to imply that Kellhus has any ideal to join the Consult, or even suffer their continued existence after they do whatever it is Kellhus needs them to do.  In other words, what I was trying to say is that there is little distinction between enemies and tools for Kellhus.  Indeed, the Consult is certainly an enemy and yet at the same time, the fact that Kellhus hasn't simply killed them all, or tossed the Ark back into the Void, speaks to them still having some kind of role.

To bring this back full circle, I don't think Meppa somehow ends up not being Kellhus' mortal enemy.  In fact, I think he is still alive to simply be that again.  Why does Kellhus need that?  I don't know, but it may have to do with him needing to strive, in a sense?

To answer my question, I believe Akka is an ally in Kellhus's own view of what a ally is. He let him live because he needed him, that much is for sure. Even in conquering Earwa, he did his best to make allies and not enemies. I'd say their is a distinct separation of the two in his mind. He made Malowebi choose, did he not? He offered to be allies, and look what "no" got Zeum. A demon-headed Malowebi coming to exterminate their line. So, I see that Kellhus sees them to be more than just tools. Life goes on after the Great Ordeal, after all. And, it is Holy!

Sure, in the abstract there is definitely a distinction between ally and enemy.  But in the practical Kellhus-ian way, they are both things to be used.  Indeed, the end for each will be different, allies rewarded or spared, enemies punished or killed, but the point is that they are all things to be used to achieve ends.

Thinking about how you phrased that though make me think of Kellhus as a "Bellicose God," that is "one who favours those who strive against him over sycophants and worshipers."  Perhaps it really is about Kellhus achieving Becoming (More), and that something that required things to be striven against?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2016, 01:36:37 pm »
Not to go off on a tangent, but you made me think of something. What was the difference between Saubon and Proyas? Both loyal generals of the Unification Wars, both followed him to the end, whatever that might be. Was Proyas rewarded and giving control of the Ordeal because he questioned Kellhus? Saubon did not. Kelllhus rewards the thinker no matter where his thoughts lead him? Though, Kellhus wanted Proyas to see that he was a lie and all that, we don't know exactly what he asked of Saubon. Interesting to think on.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 01:49:05 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2016, 02:47:36 pm »
Not to go off on a tangent, but you made me think of something. What was the difference between Saubon and Proyas? Both loyal generals of the Unification Wars, both followed him to the end, whatever that might be. Was Proyas rewarded and giving control of the Ordeal because he questioned Kellhus? Saubon did not. Kelllhus rewards the thinker no matter where his thoughts lead him? Though, Kellhus wanted Proyas to see that he was a lie and all that, we don't know exactly what he asked of Saubon. Interesting to think on.

That is a good point.  Saubon seems like a pretty straight forward sycophant, in the sense that his support for Kellhus was always to tie himself to greater personal power.  I think that is a pretty key difference between him and Proyas and probably goes a long way to explain why they end up in very different positions at the end of TGO.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2016, 11:49:05 pm »
My simple thoughts:
Kellhus is heaping emotional trauma onto Meppa, making his water even more powerful?

And a new theory about Akka kneeling to Kellhus. Akka will become the No-God and kellhus the savior will debate whether the world should end. Akka will argue that the world and the outside needs to be wiped clean and Kellhus will offer his idea for how damnation should work. Oh yeah and in the background a giant war.
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2016, 12:18:19 am »
My simple thoughts:
Kellhus is heaping emotional trauma onto Meppa, making his water even more powerful?

That's actually quite interesting. Because, we learn that what caused his Water to be so strong was the murder of his family. Great spot. I'm gonna re-read and see if Kelhhus's "such power" line comes after Meppa's confession or before.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 02:49:44 pm »
I still think Meppa gets left with the remnants of the Fanim forces.  Trying to drag him around would be a huge liability, even if he is Collared.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2016, 02:43:34 am »
My best (and incredibly far-fetched) guess for Meppa is that Kellhus will use him to destroy the nascent No-God.  Going back to the Ciphrang's POV from TTT, their description of the Cish's Water was very similar to the thread that connected humans' souls to the Outside. So I'm thinking that channeling enough Water into the No-God might cause a "soul juice" overload.

Monkhound

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« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2016, 01:59:13 pm »
Going back to the Ciphrang's POV from TTT, their description of the Cish's Water was very similar to the thread that connected humans' souls to the Outside.

It's probably already been discussed in another thread, but... Quote for this? I'm intrigued.

I remember the passage in TTT in which the power of the Water depends on the power of one's emotions. The Dunyain's emotions being so stumped because of their breeding, the last Cishaurim is basically an antithesis of Kellhus. It's not unlikely that emotional raw power is necessary in the TTT Scheme.

Also another theory: How about Kellhus seeing a picture, while he was hanging from the tree. A bit as if he were looking at some sort of vision-like Da Vinci's Last Supper, representing all the 'required' protagonists for the final showdown. Basically him seeing the last "leaf" (or one of the last leaves anyway) of the tree of possibilities offered by TTT.
This would mean he is setting the gears in motion (guiding reality) to ensure all the protagonists are at the right place for the final showdown. Do we know if Kellhus can see the final stage(s) of TTT and what the final result is to be?
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

themerchant

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« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2016, 03:42:12 pm »
It's when zioz the demon meets a cish for the first time, in Thousand fold Thought, soemthing like "the manling made a panicked noise and released a thread of light which zioz seized and yanked his soul out"

He also comments that the Cish see as he does but without the pain.

Sorry not got the book at hand, plus TTT fell apart as well last week during my re-read :(

EDIT googled Zioz manling and siezed and got it

"The manling made noise in terror, then unleashed his own light: a thread of raw energy. With one hand, Zioz grasped the thread, curious. When he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. The light vanished. The meat slapped the floor."

Full passage

"The Ciphrang fell to the floor and huddled, cringed from all things exterior, all things surface. It waited, longed for the pitching deeps. Soon one of them came. The manling had no eyes, and yet saw... saw as it did, though without the pain. But the salt of his fear tasted no different.

It rose and revealed its Form. Zioz, his face as bright as the sun.

The manling made noise in terror, then unleashed his own light: a thread of raw energy. With one hand, Zioz grasped the thread, curious. When he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. The light vanished. The meat slapped the floor.

Weak...

There are others, the Voice said. Far,far stronger."
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 03:45:15 pm by themerchant »

Monkhound

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« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2016, 04:28:25 pm »
Thank you for providing the quote.
Since the power of the Water comes from raw emotion and we know from TGO that Ciphrang feast on emotions, this is not too surprising :) . It's still an interesting passage I'd forgotten about though.

Edit: Interesting passage about magical metaphysical implications, I mean.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 04:37:25 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...