[TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)

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H

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« on: January 02, 2017, 12:31:42 pm »


So, what are we to make of this?

First things that come to mind:

The changes to the Dreams are either Seswatha moving Akka in a way that is similar to Kellhus disillusioning Proyas, or when Kellhus forced the Gnosis from Akka, he changed the dreams themselves (and presumably still is).

Second, it would seem that it's just Akka being deceived, so the Dreams (in the usual sense) are not lies.  So, it must be the changes that are deceiving him.

That being said, what are the changes?  And so, what could be the deceptive parts of them then?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 09:59:59 pm »
As a refresher, here's a link to Madness' summary of the Dreams from TDTCB through Chapter 3 of TGO:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg11491#msg11491

Quote
That being said, what are the changes?  And so, what could be the deceptive parts of them then?

I think the answer to the latter part of your question (what could be the deceptive parts) comes down to the Dreams' shifting purpose.  Breaking things down:

1) In TDTCB, TWP and TTT, the Seswatha Dreams are (mostly) all about keeping the horrors of the First Apocalypse fresh in the Mandatis' minds' so they're motivated to prevent a potential Second Apocalypse. 

2) In TJE, the Seswatha Dreams shift to push Akka toward Ishual via the map case in the Coffers.

3) In WLW, we start to get Nau-Cayuti Dreams with a purpose that's as-yet unclear. 

I suspect that the deception is with 2).  After spending 1-2 years thinking that Kellhus was behind the Ishual dreams, I'm now leaning toward thinking that it was the Consult.  Somehow, they were able to manipulate his link to Seswatha such that the Dreams changed and over time, revealed the location of Ishual, leading to its destruction.  I can't remember when the Dreams changed.  But the timing might just line up with the destruction of Ishual as measured by the age of Kellhus' grandson.

Yellow

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 07:17:02 pm »
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 07:41:18 pm »
I dunno if that's a "good" deceit or a "bad" one.

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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 12:46:23 pm »
I dunno if that's a "good" deceit or a "bad" one.

Well, a good/bad dichotomy isn't usually the most telling, since that would depend on which "side" you are on.

A better question is, who is behind the deceit and what aim does the deception serve?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 01:30:39 pm »
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

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Got a link to the Westeros thread? :)
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Madness

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 06:54:29 pm »
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 02:42:41 pm »
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

I had forgotten about that.  I guess I need to avail myself to the idea that Kellhus is really behind the changed Dreams.  Still though, the question of why is paramount to me?  What do the changed Dreams serve?  Unless it is literally just a side-effect of what Kellhus did to ply the Gnosis.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 04:27:19 pm »
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

I had forgotten about that.  I guess I need to avail myself to the idea that Kellhus is really behind the changed Dreams.  Still though, the question of why is paramount to me?  What do the changed Dreams serve?  Unless it is literally just a side-effect of what Kellhus did to ply the Gnosis.

I've always been stuck to the idea that the changes started in TDTCB. When he is with Esmi, he has a dream that he is Seswatha, but when he looks in the mirror he sees himself. He notes it was off and though there have always been descrepancies, it felt different. Though, after TGO, if I had to guess, Kellhus is manipulating them along with everything else.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 04:55:17 pm »
How about: What is the purpose of the Dreams? There is the story about Seswatha behind it, of course, but what are the things we do know of him for fact exactly? That he doesn't shit and that his accounts do not match historical accounts (the Sagas). It wouldn't be the first time we (and people in the books)  were deluded. We discovered earlier that an unexpected someone was lurking behind the Tusk as well to instil hatred: It could be that someone twisted part of Seswatha's story with the purpose of keeping some Hatred alive.
Hatred seems to have a purpose more often in the series (Serwa & Sorweel, Meppa, Cnaiür). Hatred of whom or what for, and instilled by whom, are the questions to answer.
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 06:59:58 pm »
Well, I think the purpose of the "standard issue" Dreams is pretty much as stated, because without them aligning the Mandate versus the Consult, the latter could easily play the waiting game until they were sufficiently forgotten.  Also, presumably the same mechanism is what protects the Gnosis, which places the Mandate above the other schools, securing them from being eliminated in some inter-scholastic war.  I always had a feeling, as Akka's dreams changed, that Dream Seswatha and actual Seswatha are only somewhat related.  That is, Seswatha of the Dreams was the idealistic Seswatha that the Mandate need to believe in to do what they must.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 08:09:57 pm »
How about: What is the purpose of the Dreams? There is the story about Seswatha behind it, of course, but what are the things we do know of him for fact exactly? That he doesn't shit and that his accounts do not match historical accounts (the Sagas). It wouldn't be the first time we (and people in the books)  were deluded. We discovered earlier that an unexpected someone was lurking behind the Tusk as well to instil hatred: It could be that someone twisted part of Seswatha's story with the purpose of keeping some Hatred alive.
Hatred seems to have a purpose more often in the series (Serwa & Sorweel, Meppa, Cnaiür). Hatred of whom or what for, and instilled by whom, are the questions to answer.

As H said, it is to remember. To keep the threat of the Consult alive in the Three-Seas. I don't think that it's going to be that Seswatha didnt exist, just that he altered the Dreams from reality to fit his purpose. He definitely wasnt aligned with the Consult and we know the Consults hate for him because of the SS's "Chigra" reaction to any Mandati. The deception is either the extent of what actually happened in the FA or that Kellhus has been manipulating them to his own ends. I don't see any textual evidence for much else.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 08:35:07 pm »
As H said, it is to remember. To keep the threat of the Consult alive in the Three-Seas. I don't think that it's going to be that Seswatha didnt exist, just that he altered the Dreams from reality to fit his purpose. He definitely wasnt aligned with the Consult and we know the Consults hate for him because of the SS's "Chigra" reaction to any Mandati. The deception is either the extent of what actually happened in the FA or that Kellhus has been manipulating them to his own ends. I don't see any textual evidence for much else.

I think it might be plausible to extrapolate from the Glossary entries (about how Nau-Cayûti might have been his son) that real-life Seswatha was as much of a bastard as Kellhus' (or at least similar in using people to his own ends).  We often think of it as one must be true, but what if the "standard" Dreams are lies and Akka's Dreams are lies?  Both just set toward different aims?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 04:57:44 pm »
I agree that a purpose of the Dreams is to remember. That doesn't mean there isn't be an additional one. I'm not saying Seswatha never existed, but I still somehow expect a plot twist about the standard dreams .
But I agree it's much more likely that the deception through the Dreams happens mostly to Achamian.

Also I remember the passage where we discover Seswatha may have been the father of Nau-Cayuti is described in one of the books as well, as a dream sequence.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 05:28:20 pm »
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
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