[TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)

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Monkhound

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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2017, 05:33:05 pm »
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.

I like the idea and was thinking along similar lines during TGO: That Seswatha's Heart has to be a conduit through which his Spirit/Soul stays connected to the World, while he himself is hiding in some real or artificial Deepest Deep. Basically not unlike Shaeönanra is doing.
It could possibly even extend to "every Mandate schoolman", seeing the "thoughts" we get during Achamian's torture, as well as the mental takeover during the encounter with Aurang ("but the days are new,  Chigra").
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

H

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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2017, 06:41:52 pm »
Just had a crackpot idea that perhaps Seswatha's soul is somehow "maintained" or some such by the Grasping.  Perhaps his soul is "trapped" by entangling it in a distributed manner with those of the Mandate?  It has always struck me as odd that we know nothing of Seswatha's death, which would make sense is if isn't really dead...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Yellow

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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 06:48:07 pm »
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
This has never crossed my mind before. Interesting idea!

PS in response to MSJ - the thing about Akka seeing himself in the mirror rather than Seswatha... I don't think this is particularly important to be honest. I always thought this was just the dreamer seeing through the dream for a moment - we know that the dreamers look like themselves while they are dreaming (eg when Akka intrudes on Nautzera in TTT (or was it TWP?), he sees him as Nautzera, not as Seswatha). They are themselves, they just *think* they are Seswatha.
You are the fist that beats us.

MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 10:16:10 pm »
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
This has never crossed my mind before. Interesting idea!

PS in response to MSJ - the thing about Akka seeing himself in the mirror rather than Seswatha... I don't think this is particularly important to be honest. I always thought this was just the dreamer seeing through the dream for a moment - we know that the dreamers look like themselves while they are dreaming (eg when Akka intrudes on Nautzera in TTT (or was it TWP?), he sees him as Nautzera, not as Seswatha). They are themselves, they just *think* they are Seswatha.

Yea, I know Its probably insignificant. That was a pet theory I harboured during "The Slog" leading up to TGO. If you re-read the threads, I must say, I come close to convincing all who particpated......😎! :sarcasm:
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MrGanondorf

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profgrape

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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2017, 03:42:53 pm »
Someone on r/bakker brought up a good point about the Dream where Akka/Celmomas sees Gilgaol/Kellhus: how could the Gods communicate with Celmomas if they're effectively shut out of the world due to the NG?


H

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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2017, 03:59:35 pm »
Someone on r/bakker brought up a good point about the Dream where Akka/Celmomas sees Gilgaol/Kellhus: how could the Gods communicate with Celmomas if they're effectively shut out of the world due to the NG?

Well, I think "shut out" is a bit of a misnomer.  I mean, even in the text, we are offered the idea that Yatwer can "see" the devastation in the No-God's wake, yet not it's cause.

So, there is something more afoot than simply a door closing.  I think it has more to do with ceasing the cycle of souls than anything like a barrier.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2017, 04:06:43 pm »
Yeah that question made me pause, and I never came up with a decent answer myself.

Really calls into question what we are assuming about the gods and their relationship with the NG

Do we know for sure that the Gods were shut out during the No-God's existence? Certainly the whole all-babies-being-stillborn thing seems to indicate that the souls themselves were not able to go to, or come through, the outside. But perhaps the gods were more involved that we have been thinking?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2017, 04:36:44 pm »
Do we know for sure that the Gods were shut out during the No-God's existence? Certainly the whole all-babies-being-stillborn thing seems to indicate that the souls themselves were not able to go to, or come through, the outside. But perhaps the gods were more involved that we have been thinking?

Well, I think that we have been possibly conflating the No-God's existence and the whole plan itself.

From Kellhus talking to Moe:

Quote
“To shut the World against the Outside,” the pale lips said. “To seal it through the extermination of mankind …”

Also, we learned from Bakker that the No-god has an expiration date.  So, I think the plan is to have the No-God break the cycle of souls while reducing the population, and once the population is suffiently low, then can the world be sealed, probably through some sort of sorcery that Shae cooked up or something.  The No-God itself is simply a tool to get to that point, not a seal itself.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2017, 04:41:26 pm »
The world like a basin full of water, the water are the souls.
NG absorbs the water like a sponge, draining it sufficiently that the Gods cannot dip their cups into it to drink.
Once full, the NG-Sponge is likely sealed properly to prevent the liquid-souls from escaping back out.

Populations probably need to be tightly controlled from then on lest the Gods get access again.

...
Or something like that.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

profgrape

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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2017, 04:52:20 pm »
Good points all around!

If the Gods' access wasn't restricted by the NG, it suggests that they are more than upjumped Ciphrang.

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2017, 05:05:07 pm »
Why? I dont follow.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2017, 05:15:20 pm »
Why? I dont follow.

I'm with ya.

Isn't it just as simple as the God's are blind to the No-God? Isn't there a reference somewhere about how during the FA they seen all the devastation and thought it was man's doing? I mean, even Yatwer thinks Kellhus is the true enemy. Well, in the long run, he might be....
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2017, 06:35:06 pm »
Yeah, I probably took one leap too many with this one, folks.  I was thinking (wrongly) that the No-God closed off the World to the Outside.  But there's no textual justification for that so it's more likely that the No-God is an expedient way of creating the conditions under which the Outside can be shut out.

There's nothing to see here, move along... ;-)

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2017, 06:40:24 pm »
PG I think that's an assumption a lot of people make, including myself. Might not really be the case though.
One of the other conditions of possibility.