The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]

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Eärwag

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« on: January 22, 2017, 10:20:46 pm »
First post, it is about something I have been thinking about in regards to the he No-God and the number of souls needed to shut off the World from the Outside, and the alternate dreams Akka has other Aspect-Emperor. So, spoiler alert!

A couple of things first:

- the No-God seems to be conceived as a God, but this might be a mistake of grammar. It could also mean that the Carapace is simply a zone where no God is permitted, a No-God zone. Sealed with chorae as it is, the chorae may serve to further occlude the interior of the sarcophagus.
- the 144k is the amount souls required to seal off the outside. In religion, heaven is sometimes a place where only 144k people are permitted. So far it seems people think there will be 144k people allowed to live, but this might not be the case, only the souls are required. We have seen that there are ways to contain souls in the World, either as husks or in objects.

That being said, here is my conjecture, that the dreams Akka has of people in a long chain line are being fed into the Carapace, and that the 144k souls are trapped inside the Carapace. This fulfils some prophecy about the Holy Land, and tricks the Outside into believing the World is separate somehow. Once the requisite souls are trapped, all other living beings must be extinguished, thus eliminating the need to have a group of people to care for. This also means that the No-God is not a single entity, but a confused multiplicity, a whirl of 144k souls all trapped and blinded by the chorae, perhaps.

Apparently the Inchoroi have pulled this trick on other worlds, but it never worked out for them, and then they would go to another world to try again. However the Inchoroi didn't have chorae on the other worlds, so maybe that is the game changer, and a God with teary eyes will not see so well. Mimara possesses the Eye of Judgment though, a Gods eye, so if she ever sees the Carapace, we will know.

As for the number 144k, it is based on the 12 tribes of Israel I think, and apparently 12000 from each tribe are allowed into Heaven or something. So 12 times 12000 is 144000. The Inchoroi had a homeworld but it seems they did not try this trick there. However they believe in their prophecy. Maybe their Heaven was realized by some of their people, but the rest were excluded, so they sought to recreate a new heaven of their own the best way they knew how, with the Tekne. It wasn't until they found Eärwa though that they found their match, a race who didn't have Tekne but had something perhaps more potent, the Quya, or sorcery. The marriage of sorcery and Tekne may be the key to their promised land.

Now there are only 2 Inchoroi left, or so it seems, but they are true believers and have been reinforced with the Consult. Feeding the No-God souls was easier during the first Apocolypse, as the North was full of souls, but is probably harder now that the North is empty. However, the Ordeal has enough souls to feed the No-God still, so Kellhus may unwittingly provide the Consult with what they need.

When the No-God does appear in dreams, he asks people what they see, but through the voices of Sranc. The No-God is blind but apparently has other senses, or perhaps some kind of connection with living souls, for people have an innate sense of the No-God's existence, or so I recall. Thus the No-God is the perfect annihilator, preternaturally drawn to living beings by some soul magnetism. Only cracking the Carapace seems to dispel the No-God.

Just some of my thoughts. Thanks!

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 04:42:22 am »
Welcome, Eärwag! Good post. I am just one that has ever bought the idea that 144,000 souls are needed to awake the No-God. And, for those that subscribe to the theory that the purpose of the Ordeal is to feed the No-God the necessary souls I ask.  Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash? I am just not buying it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Eärwag

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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 05:16:03 am »
Hi MSJ, thanks! I was thinking about awaking the No-God, and it might not be the case that there is a No-God to awake, but rather that the No-God is simply the word used to describe the Carapace. If the Carapace acts as a repository to contain souls, than the No-God is a multiplicity, not a god to be awakened. We know that great atrocities create some kind of link with the Outside, a Topoi, but what if you could create a mobile Topoi? That would be the function of the 144k souls, a mass sacrifice to meet the needs to create a Topoi, except one that can move. I can't really imagine what else the chain gang in Akka's dreams is being led to.

The nuke at Dagliash may not have been intended to destroy the Ordeal, but to destroy Kellhus instead. They guessed Kellhus would be heading there, and wanted to nuke him because they knew they might be slaughtered in close combat. As it turned out, the Ordeal dodged the nuke, for the most part.

However, is it certain that it was the Consult that nuked Dagliash? It wasn't really explained what the Tekne was that Kellhus retrieved, is it possible that maybe Kellhus himself used the Tekne to nuke Dagliash and so destroy the Horde? I wasn't sure on that account. I was thinking that may have been why Kellhus took Saubon instead of Proyas, because he could afford to lose Saubon in the blast, but needed Proyas to continue leading the Ordeal. That would leave the Inchoroi appearance unexplained though.

MSJ

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2017, 05:22:24 am »
Yea, just hope TUC will make little things like this clearer, I doubt it will though. I am of the opinion Kell husband had no idea the Nuke was there. Just when he found it he used the PTL and decided the course of action. I think Saucony was gonna die that Day, Nuke or not.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Eärwag

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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2017, 05:49:37 am »
I see, yes TUC ought to clarify that, hopefully. You don't think Kellhus knew about the Tekne in Dagliash though? I got the impression he was searching for something, disembowelling Dagliash. Maybe he has been using his dreams to find things too?

Also what is PTL, is that probability trance or do you mean portal?

MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2017, 08:53:22 am »
I see, yes TUC ought to clarify that, hopefully. You don't think Kellhus knew about the Tekne in Dagliash though? I got the impression he was searching for something, disembowelling Dagliash. Maybe he has been using his dreams to find things too?

Also what is PTL, is that probability trance or do you mean portal?

PT- Probability  Trance

I just felt he was doing what they planned at Dagliash. Make "new ground" and drop it on the horde waiting inside the mountain. I felt Kellhus was surprised when he found the Nuke. Just my opinion.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Tyrin

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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2017, 10:46:34 am »
Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash?

What if the sole target of the nuke was not the Ordeal, but rather the Sranc horde as well?

Let's assume that indeed the hope of the Consult is to have the Ordeal arrive at Golgotterath half-dead and a shell of its peak strength. The Consult knows that a great "herding" of Sranc is going to happen at Dagliash. The Consult also knows of Kellhus' Niom and agreement with Ishterebinth to retake Dagliash, so they know that's where the Great Ordeal is headed. As others have pointed out,  the Bashrag with Chorae hiding underground were a fake trap intended to throw Kellhus off the scent of the nuke, but if our original premise is true, then the Consult doesn't even want to annihilate the Ordeal in one fell swoop with the nuke since they need their souls for the No-God. I think that the fake trap's actual purpose was to throw Kellhus off the scent of what the Consult actually wanted to happen: weaken the Ordeal but not greatly so, spare Kellhus, yet kill the entirety of the Horde. So the reasoning then is that the Consult knows that Kellhus never makes mistakes and everything always works out the way he intends, so him discovering the nuke doesn't affect the real purpose of it: not to kill Kellhus and all of his troops, but to weaken the Ordeal AND (the important part) simultaneously completely remove the massive pile of Sranc which is the only living thing that stands between the Ordeal and Golgotterath. Now all that is left for the Ordeal is to survive the march to Golgotterath.

So then if everything goes according to the Consult's plan (and possibly Kellhus' plan as well to some end), a half-dead, cannibalistic husk of the Ordeal arrives at Golgotterath to be easily wrangled up and tossed into No-God 2.0 by whatever remaining weapon race magic Aurax has figured out after all these years.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 10:51:52 am by Tyrin »

MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 12:36:27 pm »
Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash?

What if the sole target of the nuke was not the Ordeal, but rather the Sranc horde as well?

Let's assume that indeed the hope of the Consult is to have the Ordeal arrive at Golgotterath half-dead and a shell of its peak strength. The Consult knows that a great "herding" of Sranc is going to happen at Dagliash. The Consult also knows of Kellhus' Niom and agreement with Ishterebinth to retake Dagliash, so they know that's where the Great Ordeal is headed. As others have pointed out,  the Bashrag with Chorae hiding underground were a fake trap intended to throw Kellhus off the scent of the nuke, but if our original premise is true, then the Consult doesn't even want to annihilate the Ordeal in one fell swoop with the nuke since they need their souls for the No-God. I think that the fake trap's actual purpose was to throw Kellhus off the scent of what the Consult actually wanted to happen: weaken the Ordeal but not greatly so, spare Kellhus, yet kill the entirety of the Horde. So the reasoning then is that the Consult knows that Kellhus never makes mistakes and everything always works out the way he intends, so him discovering the nuke doesn't affect the real purpose of it: not to kill Kellhus and all of his troops, but to weaken the Ordeal AND (the important part) simultaneously completely remove the massive pile of Sranc which is the only living thing that stands between the Ordeal and Golgotterath. Now all that is left for the Ordeal is to survive the march to Golgotterath.

So then if everything goes according to the Consult's plan (and possibly Kellhus' plan as well to some end), a half-dead, cannibalistic husk of the Ordeal arrives at Golgotterath to be easily wrangled up and tossed into No-God 2.0 by whatever remaining weapon race magic Aurax has figured out after all these years.

Yes. Yes. That's the 1239th time of been tried to be convinced that the Ordeal purpose is to awaken the No-God. I still  don't buy it. Not saying your wrong. Just not what I see happening of something that becomes Holy.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 12:52:25 pm »
That being said, here is my conjecture, that the dreams Akka has of people in a long chain line are being fed into the Carapace, and that the 144k souls are trapped inside the Carapace. This fulfils some prophecy about the Holy Land, and tricks the Outside into believing the World is separate somehow. Once the requisite souls are trapped, all other living beings must be extinguished, thus eliminating the need to have a group of people to care for. This also means that the No-God is not a single entity, but a confused multiplicity, a whirl of 144k souls all trapped and blinded by the chorae, perhaps.

While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

Apparently the Inchoroi have pulled this trick on other worlds, but it never worked out for them, and then they would go to another world to try again.

Indeed, we know they reduced many world.  However, I feel pretty confident that the No-God is a creation of Shaeönanra and never existed before (or probably could even exist outside of) Earwa.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Eärwag

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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 04:27:47 am »
While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

I don't have the book with me, but the pace at chain gang was moving forward in the alternate dream of Akka was much faster than one length an hour, it seemed to be clanging at a fairly regular pace as I recall but I don't have the book or passage on me so I'm not too sure.

As for the chorae, I think you may be correct, the chorae may protect against the No-God.

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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 08:38:21 pm »
While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

I don't have the book with me, but the pace at chain gang was moving forward in the alternate dream of Akka was much faster than one length an hour, it seemed to be clanging at a fairly regular pace as I recall but I don't have the book or passage on me so I'm not too sure.

Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

As for the chorae, I think you may be correct, the chorae may protect against the No-God.

And in turn, they might be in/on the Carapace to simply protect it from simply being destroyed by sorcery.  It it, after all, take a might mundane weapon to crack it.  Presumably Seswatha's Gnosis could have done it, if there were no Chorae there.  But maybe it's both.  Keeps the No-God in and sorcery out.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 10:34:32 pm »
Quote from: H
Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

Indeed, if souls were all that was needed then the resurrection of the No-God would have happened a long time ago. It's my main reason as to why I don't buy the theory. It's been stated that the chorae is indeed a safeguard for the No-God against sorcery.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Eärwag

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 02:13:27 am »
Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

Maybe it isn't the souls that are time consuming, but the manufacture of the Carapace that takes up so much time. Moënghus learned from the skin spies that the Consult was about 20 years away from ressurrecting the No-God, maybe there is a 20 year build time on the Carapace?

That thing about a specific kind of soul being required occurred to me too. The Synthese mentioned that the prophecy proclaimed something about the Judging Eye, maybe the Consult needs the JE to filter out pure souls from damaged souls?

And in turn, they might be in/on the Carapace to simply protect it from simply being destroyed by sorcery.  It it, after all, take a might mundane weapon to crack it.  Presumably Seswatha's Gnosis could have done it, if there were no Chorae there.  But maybe it's both.  Keeps the No-God in and sorcery out.

That's true, it took the Heron Spear to crack the Carapace before. If the Consult has reclaimed the Heron Spear, than there may be no way of stopping the No-God this time around, unless the Tekne Kellhus found in Dagliash is capable of doing it.

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 02:23:05 am »
That thing about a specific kind of soul being required occurred to me too. The Synthese mentioned that the prophecy proclaimed something about the Judging Eye, maybe the Consult needs the JE to filter out pure souls from damaged souls?

I may be wrong, but all the Synethse said was that all prophecies must be respected. And that, only after Soma mentioned that Mimara was pregnant.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Francis Buck

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 04:47:55 am »
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.