The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]

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Eärwag

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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 06:32:40 am »
I may be wrong, but all the Synethse said was that all prophecies must be respected. And that, only after Soma mentioned that Mimara was pregnant.

I think you are right, your memory is better than mine. I seem to recall Akka saying something about pregnant people having the JE too, which may mean it leaves her when she gives birth.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 06:43:23 am »
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 06:45:12 am by Radical Jack »

Eärwag

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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 06:46:44 am »
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.

Yes, like a tipping point, just kill until there are only 144k souls left, then it kind of unfolds as it should. In that scenario it would pay to be as far from Golgotterath as possible. I wonder what the rest of Eänna is thinking about the Great Ordeal, the must have heard of it.

Eärwag

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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 06:53:12 am »
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

I forgot about that, would that mean the JE is passed onto the child once born, and then they would be able to us it, leaving Mimara unable to see soul and their radiance? I am in the process of rereading the series's and am taking notes as I go this time, it's just so much to take in.

By the way, do you remember when Nau Cayutus (sp?) is talking to Shauriatis he and mentions the Derived, what do you suppose that is, the No-God, or something else?

Francis Buck

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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 07:05:00 am »
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

I forgot about that, would that mean the JE is passed onto the child once born, and then they would be able to us it, leaving Mimara unable to see soul and their radiance? I am in the process of rereading the series's and am taking notes as I go this time, it's just so much to take in.

By the way, do you remember when Nau Cayutus (sp?) is talking to Shauriatis he and mentions the Derived, what do you suppose that is, the No-God, or something else?

Welcome to the forums, and yes, it is a LOT to take in. More so than even some of our more experienced members realize, I think. Including myself, :)

As to your second question, I believe that the "Derived" simply refers to the Weapon Races -- Sranc, Bashrag, Dragons, etc. Much like Lord of the Rings, where Sauron cannot create "new life" but only twist previously existing entities into new forms, in TSA the situation is similar (at least on the surface). Shauriatas can only derive new creatures out of the bios of existing lifeforms.

Sauron tortured and twisted Elves until they became Orcs.

The Consult deciphered the bios (presumably the genome) of Nonmen and created Sranc.

Details are scant on Bashrag on Dragons, but I think that's the general idea.

MSJ

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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 04:19:18 pm »
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

But, Mimara had the JE before she was pregnant. Said she has always had it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 04:25:19 pm »
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.

Yes, like a tipping point, just kill until there are only 144k souls left, then it kind of unfolds as it should. In that scenario it would pay to be as far from Golgotterath as possible. I wonder what the rest of Eänna is thinking about the Great Ordeal, the must have heard of it.

The only thing ever said about 144,000 souls in the books is by the Wracu Akka faces off with. That is the number the population has to be reduced to to shut Eärwa off from the Outside. The No-God's is the Consults tool to do this quicker. Once the No-God rises there are no more births. So, many have speculated as to why the No-God even went to war in the first place. They could have waited until people died off and with no more babies being born it wouldn't have taking very long.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Eärwag

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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2017, 09:49:25 pm »
Welcome to the forums, and yes, it is a LOT to take in. More so than even some of our more experienced members realize, I think. Including myself, :)

As to your second question, I believe that the "Derived" simply refers to the Weapon Races -- Sranc, Bashrag, Dragons, etc. Much like Lord of the Rings, where Sauron cannot create "new life" but only twist previously existing entities into new forms, in TSA the situation is similar (at least on the surface). Shauriatas can only derive new creatures out of the bios of existing lifeforms.

Sauron tortured and twisted Elves until they became Orcs.

The Consult deciphered the bios (presumably the genome) of Nonmen and created Sranc.

Details are scant on Bashrag on Dragons, but I think that's the general idea.

Yes, thanks! If I remember, Wutteat said that the Inchoroi Sil rode on his shoulder as they initially left their space ship, so I guess dragons were created elsewhere. The bashrag I think must have been created elsewhere, but their tripled nature reminds me of Nonman sculptures that depict three poses in one, so I'm not sure. I think the Synthese must have been created by Shauriatis, some rude combination of human and bird.

I keep coming back to the No-God though, I reread one of the dreams where No-God is asking what he is, "What am I?", but with the voice of a hundred thousand Sranc, or could that be one hundred forty four thousand? It would be hard to tell the difference if they were all screeching at once. That would be a special kind of torture, to be lost in a legion of souls, unable to see or know what you are, speaking as a multiplicity.

Just once I'd like a part of the story to be told from the viewpoint of a Sranc, to see the world the way they do. Maybe Akka can have a dream but as a Sranc on the Battleplain of Mengedda? One can hope.

Eärwag

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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2017, 10:35:42 pm »
The only thing ever said about 144,000 souls in the books is by the Wracu Akka faces off with. That is the number the population has to be reduced to to shut Eärwa off from the Outside. The No-God's is the Consults tool to do this quicker. Once the No-God rises there are no more births. So, many have speculated as to why the No-God even went to war in the first place. They could have waited until people died off and with no more babies being born it wouldn't have taking very long.

That's good to know, but I think there is more to that number, I'll have to reread that section. If it is the case that the population needs to be 144k in order to shut out the Outside, what happens if one trips and falls to their death? If everyone is sterile, than you can't replace a lost person, and the number is broken. However, if it is the case that the number of souls need only be trapped in the Carapace, as I believe is the case as revealed in Akka's dream of the chain gang being lead into some clanging mechanism, than the Consult need never worry about losing a soul here and there, and they would only have to eliminate all remaining living souls to attain the magic number.

However, that would mean that the Skylvendi would have to be betrayed at some point, once the rest of humanity is eliminated. I wonder how they felt when their wives were rendered barren by the No-God? They seemed to be ok with it, fighting alongside the No-God at Mengedda. I can't wait to see what the battle will be like between Cnaiür and the People, and Proyas and the Ordeal.

Alternatively, if it is the case that the Carapace is not some kind of Wathi doll of epic proportions, a giant soul trap, than there would have to be a population of souled beings kept around, and maybe that role would fall to the Skylvendi, some kind of chosen people? Perhaps the Consult could grant them immortality, keep their population at 144k, and use their Tekne to replace any Skylvendi who die, like in an artificial womb of some sort; I'm sure it would be within their capability.

That also raises another concern though, would the Consult have to hunt down all artifacts that contain a soul, like Wathi dolls, and the masks used by the Nonmen to imprison souls? What about any wights left around, like the Nonman King in Cil Aujas? I guess all will be revealed in The Unholy Consult. Thanks!

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2017, 02:05:34 am »
Just to be clear Eärwag, reducing their number to 144,00 is just what shuts there Outside. If they number goes lower, then Outside is still shut. I have no doubt human souls are involved in awakening there No-God, I just don't agree it has to be 144,000.

ETA: it may only take ONE soul to do that. And that's what I am leaning towards.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2017, 06:53:34 pm »
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2017, 08:24:33 pm »
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2017, 09:08:45 pm »
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.

Ok, fair enough. That's not even what's important to my argument. It's always in reference to shutting the Outside. That's my point.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Eärwag

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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2017, 09:48:00 pm »
Just to be clear Eärwag, reducing their number to 144,00 is just what shuts there Outside. If they number goes lower, then Outside is still shut. I have no doubt human souls are involved in awakening there No-God, I just don't agree it has to be 144,000.

ETA: it may only take ONE soul to do that. And that's what I am leaning towards.

I see, I didn't realize that, good to know. So they could attain the number, and then eliminate everyone and it would still work, and even if they didn't , it's not like the remaining souled beings could reproduce, having gone barren.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2017, 04:32:54 pm »
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.

Ok, fair enough. That's not even what's important to my argument. It's always in reference to shutting the Outside. That's my point.

I wasn't trying to invalidate your whole argument :) .  Just fact checking what there is to check.
One of the other conditions of possibility.