[TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat

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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 08:35:38 pm »
Cool -- wasn't sure whether that idea was broadly accepted or not.  The whole "granary/bread" thing just makes me imagine life on Earwa as nothing more than a way to produce juicier souls for the Gods.  And the Judging Eye is like Yelp for souls; showing which ones will be the best to eat.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 09:28:51 pm »
Cool -- wasn't sure whether that idea was broadly accepted or not.  The whole "granary/bread" thing just makes me imagine life on Earwa as nothing more than a way to produce juicier souls for the Gods.  And the Judging Eye is like Yelp for souls; showing which ones will be the best to eat.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?

What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?

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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 12:13:19 pm »
What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?

That seems possible.  If your soul is a ledger, the more entries the better?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 04:30:12 pm »
What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?

That seems possible.  If your soul is a ledger, the more entries the better?

Probably unrelated.  But it mirrors the rules for the Dolour; "heroic" souls (more entries) succumb sooner.

H

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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 05:13:36 pm »
Probably unrelated.  But it mirrors the rules for the Dolour; "heroic" souls (more entries) succumb sooner.

True, but the separation between Weal and Dolour and then the fall into Erraticism seems more about memory than about the soul.  Indeed, it seems that indeed, this is what  forced the Nonmen from Being to Becoming and what opened them back to Damnation.  Honestly, the whole thing confuses me, I've needed to dig deeper into the Nonman Philosophy post TGO and haven't gotten a chance yet.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 10:06:56 pm »
My clipboard isn't wanting to work at the moment so I'm not going to quote, but Koringhus tells what is holy when he discovers the JE. Ignorance, blindness, surrender, forfeiture and loss. Sound like anyone? Serwe. That's why Bakker said that she was a sort of cipher for the books. She isn't damned as Kellhus told Proyas. Her ignorance, her loss all of that made her holy. I'd imagine if Mimara could've looked upon her she would have been wreathed in Gold. Also, in TJE we hear over and over that what makes Sorweel a perfect vessel for Yatwer is his ignorance. Now, it's all so confusing. Because, I assume what Koringhus found out got him out of Damnation. Yet, that same ignorance makes Sorweel the perfect vessel for Yatwer, ergo a Ciphrang anyway you slice it. So count me as confused as hell. I'm just starting to believe that 99.9999% of people on Earwa are damned. Just how it works.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 11:25:29 am »
As it should be though, right?

I mean, we don't make granaries that allow the wheat to simply get away?  Some might here or there, but by and large, the granary does what it is supposed to do: store it for consumption.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2017, 04:09:33 pm »
A couple of riffs on the idea that bodies don't *have* souls, rather, they are connected to souls in the Outside:

The process of "going" to the Outside might just be a matter of seeing through your connected soul's perspective.  So Daimotic sorcerers don't *go* to the Outside, they just travel up the connection and peer through through their soul.

So the "head on a pole behind you" is Kellhus' physical body as seen from the perspective of his soul in Outside!


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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2017, 04:18:57 pm »
A couple of riffs on the idea that bodies don't *have* souls, rather, they are connected to souls in the Outside:

The process of "going" to the Outside might just be a matter of seeing through your connected soul's perspective.  So Daimotic sorcerers don't *go* to the Outside, they just travel up the connection and peer through through their soul.

So the "head on a pole behind you" is Kellhus' physical body as seen from the perspective of his soul in Outside!

Indeed, this was part of geoffrobro's theory that was on a LostCast.  Indeed, in TGO it is mentioned:

"And he sees, though his eyes have rolled into his brow."

When Kellhus is walking in the Outside.  I cribbed his theory before, but I can't recall where I posted it though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 04:43:15 pm »
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.


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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 05:06:33 pm »
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.

Kellhus knows the Daimos.  He learned it from Iyokus during the Unification Wars and that is when he got the Decapitants.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 05:08:14 pm »
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.



Could have summoned them a la Zioz and the others from TTT.

Extending the notion of viewing the Outside through your soul, I wonder if this is along the lines of what the Inverse Fire does.  Consider this line from TFS:

Quote
All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.

To the Gods, souls might be the tip of the "straws" that make up the connection between bodies and souls.  So they are able to directly consume sins/acts as they're performed.  "All men burned all the time" could mean that souls are always being consumed/tortured in the Outside, it's just that people don't know about it.

The Inverse Fire might allow a body to experience what their *soul* is currently experiencing.

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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 05:17:54 pm »
Extending the notion of viewing the Outside through your soul, I wonder if this is along the lines of what the Inverse Fire does.  Consider this line from TFS:

Quote
All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.

To the Gods, souls might be the tip of the "straws" that make up the connection between bodies and souls.  So they are able to directly consume sins/acts as they're performed.  "All men burned all the time" could mean that souls are always being consumed/tortured in the Outside, it's just that people don't know about it.

The Inverse Fire might allow a body to experience what their *soul* is currently experiencing.

I had a similar idea before, about what the Inverse Fire is showing you when you look at it.  I think that is something of textual proof it could be true.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 08:04:41 pm »
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.



Could have summoned them a la Zioz and the others from TTT.

I thought it was nearly explicit that Kellhus hunted down the ciphrang  Iyokus had summoned so that he would be free to serve him?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 11:23:49 am »
I thought it was nearly explicit that Kellhus hunted down the ciphrang  Iyokus had summoned so that he would be free to serve him?

I don't recall that and couldn't find a passage to imply it.

Quote
Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unification Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer..."

Not that it doesn't mean those weren't the Chiphrang who would torment Iyokus though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira