[TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat

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Wilshire

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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2017, 07:46:07 pm »
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.
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MSJ

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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 09:20:26 pm »
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.

I'm disappointed we haven't seen any of Iyokus. You'd think he'd be a great character to tie both series together. An outside perspective of someone being yoked by Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2017, 11:42:53 am »
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.

There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

I can only remember Iyokus mentioning it was his fate anyway when the demon says "manling don't you recognise your fate" or some such thing.

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« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2017, 12:12:10 am »
There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

Fairly sure that it was Triskele on Westeros that suggested the 'Iyokus' Gift' hypothesis. It depends on the complete dissolution of the two Ciphrang hit by Chorae vs. the "fading" of the one Achamian defeats in TWP, implying the same for the one he defeats in TTT.
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themerchant

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« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2017, 04:45:58 am »
There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

Fairly sure that it was Triskele on Westeros that suggested the 'Iyokus' Gift' hypothesis. It depends on the complete dissolution of the two Ciphrang hit by Chorae vs. the "fading" of the one Achamian defeats in TWP, implying the same for the one he defeats in TTT.

One was was hit by an absence on a stick the other by multiple hits from cish, but yeah, do they remain when defeated or do they do as Akka's one in TWP and cringe away back to the outside. Would also be a question relevant toi can Kel summon one and behead it and have the head remain in earwa without going back to the outside, which is what seems to happen to defeated Ciphrang.

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JRControl

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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2017, 06:10:44 pm »
My clipboard isn't wanting to work at the moment so I'm not going to quote, but Koringhus tells what is holy when he discovers the JE. Ignorance, blindness, surrender, forfeiture and loss. Sound like anyone? Serwe. That's why Bakker said that she was a sort of cipher for the books. She isn't damned as Kellhus told Proyas. Her ignorance, her loss all of that made her holy. I'd imagine if Mimara could've looked upon her she would have been wreathed in Gold. Also, in TJE we hear over and over that what makes Sorweel a perfect vessel for Yatwer is his ignorance. Now, it's all so confusing. Because, I assume what Koringhus found out got him out of Damnation. Yet, that same ignorance makes Sorweel the perfect vessel for Yatwer, ergo a Ciphrang anyway you slice it. So count me as confused as hell. I'm just starting to believe that 99.9999% of people on Earwa are damned. Just how it works.

Serwe was holy, but she worshipped an outsider or a challenger to the existing framework. Her belief in big K made K an even bigger K metaphysically speaking. However when she died Kellhus still isn't charge of the Outside so she was necessarily damned by being a heathen.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?

My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

----

So while I like the pretty metal idea of Cnauir being such a badass that he becomes a demon I can't square it with the Inchoroi. I mean their whole existence revolves around carnality and murder, entire worlds reaped and annihilated. Their Wracu certainly resist death and deform reality. How are none of them Ciphrang just waiting to shed their mortal bodies? They certainly don't lack willpower or conviction. They might only lack...belief?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 06:17:29 pm by JRControl »
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Athorn "FB" Gallizur

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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2017, 09:57:41 pm »
My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

----

So while I like the pretty metal idea of Cnauir being such a badass that he becomes a demon I can't square it with the Inchoroi. I mean their whole existence revolves around carnality and murder, entire worlds reaped and annihilated. Their Wracu certainly resist death and deform reality. How are none of them Ciphrang just waiting to shed their mortal bodies? They certainly don't lack willpower or conviction. They might only lack...belief?

I also believe that Ciphrang feed on emotion, however, I think they only feed on certain types of emotion -- negative ones, broadly speaking. Regret, sorrow, shame, guilt.

Gods are on the opposite end of the spectrum, as beings which feed on "positive" emotions, aspirations, desires, reaching, etc. Of course, I think the point here (as epitomized with the Inchoroi) is that neither end of this hypothetical spectrum is intrinsically good or bad, since it's all subjective or intersubjective.

This would also, at first blush, make the Inchoroi "angels" to the Ciphrang "demons". And the Inchoroi did descend from the Void (heavens), and historically were even referred to directly as Flesh-Angels, with the No-God being called the Angel-of-Endless-Hunger, and Aurang as the Angel-of-Deceit.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 05:44:25 am by FB »

MSJ

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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2017, 10:12:33 pm »
Serwe was holy, but she worshipped an outsider or a challenger to the existing framework. Her belief in big K made K an even bigger K metaphysically speaking. However when she died Kellhus still isn't charge of the Outside so she was necessarily damned by being a heathen.

Good point. I went back and looked up who she prayed to as a slave of House Gaunum, and it's the ancestors of that House. A lot like Zëum, right? And, along the lines that Sërwe is a cipher for the series, that might point to the long asked question of who will be damned. As in whole nations, every nation but Zëum. I think that's why we only get a cursory glance at Zëum.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 10:27:26 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JRControl

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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2017, 09:32:20 am »
Good point. I went back and looked up who she prayed to as a slave of House Gaunum, and it's the ancestors of that House. A lot like Zëum, right? And, along the lines that Sërwe is a cipher for the series, that might point to the long asked question of who will be damned. As in whole nations, every nation but Zëum. I think that's why we only get a cursory glance at Zëum.

From what I recall you either need ancestor or divine intervention, so either dedicated worship to a specific deity or following the holy laws to the letter for the latter. I like to imagine divine loan shark lawyers surfing the Outside, just waiting for people to slip up on the merest technicality. As for ancestor intervention, well that presumes that your ancestors were also behaving well to be in a position to help you, no? I'd say that still leaves a fair bit of them up for grabs as saints and men of pure virtue are rare. Though I could be wrong, if all that is needed is just belief in something to make it true. If that is the case, there is good reason to behave virtuously (at least in regard to your own family) so your descendants would pray for/to you and give you power in the Outside. An interesting dynamic, game-theory wise. Defection would be unwise in that regard.

I can also imagine the various earthbourne God-Emprerors feeling all nice and cozy in heavenly castles until the prayer taxes stop coming for one reason or another.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 09:42:09 am by JRControl »
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Darzin

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« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2017, 02:52:25 pm »
My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

I think you are spot on here. The head on the pole scene mentions two places a place of fire and shrieks and a place of skies and moans   . I think if you life forever in pain or forever in ecstasy depends on what you do. If you make your soul salty or sweet. 

[EDIT Madness: Fixed your quote tag. Also, nice to read you again, Darzin :).]
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 06:36:22 pm by Madness »
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