K's Mark, Mim's Eye *spoilers*

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Corwin

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« on: March 01, 2017, 12:34:22 am »
Ive been creeping on these boards for a while, first post though, so I apologise if these are rehashed topics. Ive been working on my first re-read and wanted some clearification about a few things:

In, i beleive, the WP Aka remarks that it's a good thing Khellus isnt one of the few because of his preternatural abilities. Turns out K is one of the few. Why wasnt Aka able to see this before K tells him? The mark is only seen after one practices sorcery? Someone as practiced as Aka cant tell who is predisposed to the ability? How does K even know of his own abilities given his limited understanding of magic?

In researching as much as i could find on the judging eye ability, i noticed alot of people seem to think it's caused by the baby. I think even Aka ties it to being pregnant, but Mimara uses the eye on Aka the night he brings her food...before they even bang. So it cant be the kid. Is there a theory on this ability outside of pregnancy?

This is simply speculation: Assuming the story doesnt end with Khellus rolling into Golgotterath and kicking Consult ass, saving the world, etc, etc...he's gotta be removed somehow. Given his absurd omnipotence, anyone else suspect the Heron Spear makes an appearance in this regard?

Thanks for any feedback!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:44:18 am by Corwin »

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 12:49:00 am »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Corwin :).

- Yeap, one is only Marked after one practices sorcery. That's the drama in TWP behind the test of the Wathi Doll and Kellhus being able to command it without being marked, lest he be hunted as a Wizard.

- In the small moments when Achamian has explained anything to Mimara, he seems to suggest that because her pregnancy was always going to happen at some point - according to the skewed perspective of the Gods - those who possess the Judging Eye, possess it for life.

I'm sure others have better thoughts than I, though.

EDIT: I didn't realize what subforum we were in. The rules were always unclear here but thanks for editing your title, Corwin.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:59:22 am by Madness »
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 11:37:53 am »
I guess I should ask before diving too far in, have you read TGO Corwin?

I think some things we learn help understand parts, but I don't want to spoil it if you haven't read it yet.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2017, 03:13:43 pm »
Concerning why Achamian does not detect Kellhus as having the potential to practice magic:
As Madness explained, only the Few can see the Few, but to be seen requires to have a Mark, and therefore to have practised sorcery (ie. To have uttered a Cant). There was a mention of the Schools having specialised scouts for detecting talent in one of Achamian's childhood flashbacks, but I can't remember being mentioned how they proceed. It's possible Achamian hasn't had the training for that.
Besides, even if he has had the training, he hasn't had any reason to suspect Kellhus of being one of the Few (until Kellhus brings it up), so he won't be looking for it either.
Why Kellhus himself knows he is one of the Few, is unclear, as far as I know. He can probably sense Achamian's and the doll's Mark though, like Mimara can see Achamian's despite her never having uttered a single Cant.

About the Judging Eye and babies: Achamian only mentions the phenomenon is related to stillborn babies. It does not appear to be triggered by her twin foetuses specifically. So far, we are lead to believe she has had the Eye since before her first appearance in the series. It's possible she's beheld Kellhus in the Eye, although it's extensively described he was nigh on never in Momemn while she was there, making it just as likely she hasn't. She must have seen his mark though.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2017, 06:22:36 pm »
Some clarity, Monkhound:
Kellhus is shown to have seen sorcery as early as TDTCB. When he's running from the Nonman he comes to a place that is marked, and he mentions something about it.
Kellhus is also super smart, he was just able to figure out that he sees things in a way that some people do not - the Onta. It has a distinct appearance, see: Achamian's flashback to when his 'inner sight' first opens.
Seeing the Onta, the fabric of creation, is separate from being Marked. Those of the Few see the Onta, which includes the mark of sorcery, but its also independent from that. Everything looks different to those who can See.
As discussed above, the Mark is something comes about from the practice of sorcery, and can be on a sorcerer (often described as a Mark, a Bruise, or more formally 'The Blood of the Onta'), or it can be on objects that sorcery has been used on. There are several instances of objects or whole swaths of battle fields being 'marked' after battles.


The Judging Eye is somehow tied to pregnancy, but also separate. I believe Mimara herself says that she has had this 'other sight' for as long as she can remember. This sight, btw, is entirely separate from seeing the Onta as described above. Onta is the fabric of creation, the Judging Eye sees what appears to be some kind of morality, good vs. evil, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 11:30:20 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
The Judging Eye is somehow tied to pregnancy, but also separate. I believe Mimara herself says that she has had this 'other sight' for as long as she can remember. This sight, btw, is entirely separate from seeing the Onta as described above. Onta is the fabric of creation, the Judging Eye sees what appears to be some kind of morality, good vs. evil, etc.

I think she's always has the eye because of the way time exists on Earwa. Since, she was always going to be pregnant at some point, therefore she always had the JE. How I understand it at least. What i find very interesting, is that she has twins, one dead, one alive. I bet that like Kelmommas and Sammi being connected, so will here twin and we'll have a truly living JE (hard to put into words what I mean by that, hope you get the gist).
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 11:34:13 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
The Judging Eye is somehow tied to pregnancy, but also separate. I believe Mimara herself says that she has had this 'other sight' for as long as she can remember. This sight, btw, is entirely separate from seeing the Onta as described above. Onta is the fabric of creation, the Judging Eye sees what appears to be some kind of morality, good vs. evil, etc.

I think she's always has the eye because of the way time exists on Earwa. Since, she was always going to be pregnant at some point, therefore she always had the JE. How I understand it at least. What i find very interesting, is that she has twins, one dead, one alive. I bet that like Kelmommas and Sammi being connected, so will here twin and we'll have a truly living JE (hard to put into words what I mean by that, hope you get the gist).

ETA: Ooh, Ooh :Crackpot time:, what when the live baby is born and it's connection to the dead one with the JE is the actual moment that the God truly awakens,
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 04:33:43 pm »
@Wilshire: I don't recall that specific passage about Achamian you're referring to. Where can I find it? I'm intrigued :)
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Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 05:09:35 pm »
@Wilshire: I don't recall that specific passage about Achamian you're referring to. Where can I find it? I'm intrigued :)
Hmm, I think its in PoN somewhere ... I really am not sure. I don't have ebooks so I can search them for ya, sorry! Maybe someone else can find it. TDTCB maybe?
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 08:08:31 pm »
I'm pretty sure it's in the very first chapter of TDTCB.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 09:29:31 pm »
Ouch, can't believe I missed that every single time...  :o
Thanks.
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Corwin

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 11:28:22 pm »
Thanks for the feedback everyone! I appreciate the clearification. It sounds like where the JE is concerned there just isnt alot to go on so far.

H, i have read all the books so far, but it was over a 4 year time span. The most recent installment i bought the day it was released and read in 3 days. As much as i enjoyed binge reading it, im sure i missed a ton of the smaller details, and with UC coming up i thought a reread of the whole series was in order. Glad this forum is here, as much as I enjoy Bakker's style i feel like someone should release an annoted version. The sheer scope of things is overwhelming!

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2017, 03:34:43 pm »
Though you'd be starting behind, there are some people on facebook/here doing a reread prior to TUC release. You might check it out.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2094.msg31976#msg31976
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 12:56:52 pm »
Thanks for the feedback everyone! I appreciate the clearification. It sounds like where the JE is concerned there just isnt alot to go on so far.

H, i have read all the books so far, but it was over a 4 year time span. The most recent installment i bought the day it was released and read in 3 days. As much as i enjoyed binge reading it, im sure i missed a ton of the smaller details, and with UC coming up i thought a reread of the whole series was in order. Glad this forum is here, as much as I enjoy Bakker's style i feel like someone should release an annoted version. The sheer scope of things is overwhelming!

Well, like others have said, the idea presented by Koringhus that "this has all happened before" in TGO seems to point us to the idea that time isn't exactly linear, or at least not when it comes to things in the Outside.  Best guess it is that the Outside is beyond time, so when Mimara gained the Judging Eye, she gained it at all times.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 01:02:06 pm »
Best guess it is that the Outside is beyond time, so when Mimara gained the Judging Eye, she gained it at all times.
Or, from the perspective of the Inside, she always had it.
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