Kellhus' return to Momemn and the Hundred

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The Black Light

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« on: March 10, 2017, 03:54:45 pm »
So there's something that really bothers me about Kellhus returning to Momemn. Going back exactly when he's needed seems like either a plan or a coincidence. But how could he know what's going on there or what is going to happen (without the earthquake Fanayal couldn't really storm the city)? And it couldn't simply be a coincidence.

From what Psatma says we learn she knew the earthquake was coming, that it was caused by Yatwer, or so she thinks. But do the Gods really act this way? If Yatwer can simply cause an earthquake, why not do it anytime while Kellhus was somewhere in the Palace near a Chorae that would kill him? Or while he's sleeping? Can't a God cause a storm while Kellhus was controlling that raft over The Misty Sea and struck him with a lightning? Even if not killing him, then stunning him so he'll lose control and all of them could sink and drown before Kellhus is able to recover? After all, there are numerous examples of the Gods working through people - Psatma, TWLW, Sorweel, the Narindars... And it seems like that's how they do it - through people rather than directly.

Indeed, maybe she needed the WLW in order to cause a natural phenomenon like the earthquake (Eärwaquake?), but if Sorweel was really blessed by her, maybe she could have done something, anything, while he was near K. So how come all this coincide - the Aspect-Emperor coming back to Momemn precisely when he's needed to stop Fanayal precisely after he can finally storm the city due to the collapsed walls?

Is there some kind of contradiction between the way Gods normally act and what Yatwer does or it's all in my head only?
You know nothing of war. War is dark. Black as pitch. It is not a God. It does not laugh or weep. It rewards neither skill nor daring. It is not a trial of souls, not the measure of wills. Even less it is a tool, a means to some womanish end. It is merely the place where the iron bones of the earth meet the hollow bones of men and break them.

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2017, 06:39:07 pm »
I think there's plenty of instances that might suggest Yatwer is special. First of all, she directly shows up in Earwa which I think is huge, but there are other more minor 'miracles' that we see from her - none of the other gods really manifest nearly as directly or even indirectly as Yatwer (so far as we have seen).
Other than Yatwer though, we have see the Narindar of Ajokli, potentially the voice in Inrau's head from the head-on-a-pole lady (forget her name, sorry), Ajokli's prophecy, rumors of Gilgaol possession of people on battlefields, and probably several others. Yatwer has the most instances of manipulations that we see, in this timeline of Earwa history that we have glimpsed, but its wouldn't be too surprisng to find out that other gods have had great interventions in older histories or other timelines that we havent seen.

That said, I don't think Yatwer was the entirety of the cause of the earthquake (Earwaque? Earwaquake, Earwake... whatever). All of her manipulations were mostly nudges  through people. The closest thing we saw was when the WLW's tenant building collapsed, and we got to see the cause-and-effect chain for hundreds of years in the past.

Maybe she nudged the builders to use mediocre materials in one part of the wall, or place a vulnerable point of the wall directly over the faultline - this kind of thing. If she knew there would be an ground-shaking-event such a thing would be fairly reasonable. Like you said, it opens up to many questions if its as simple as "Yatwer reached down to Earwa, and with her hands, split the ground asunder".

"Coincidence" is pretty tricky where Yatwer, WLW, and Kellhus are concerned. All of them claim to see everything and predict the future. All of them have been wrong. Definitely its too much for me to say that there was no God intervention there in Momemn, and equally difficult to suggest that there was none. As with most things in the series, its probably some kind of combination of both.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 06:41:49 pm by Wilshire »
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2017, 07:14:13 pm »
I would definitely put Yatwer and Gilgaol in a somewhat special place in the hierarchy. They are basically polar opposites, and together create the engine that cycles souls through life and death. And, as Wilshire mentioned, there is an abundance of evident miracles on Yatwer's behalf, and as of TGO, the only god we've seen genuinely incarnated (for lack of a better word) it would seem is Gilgaol, during the extended Celmomian Prophecy.


All that being said, I'm still somewhat divided on whether the instances of visible power we've seen from Yatwer is because of something unique to the deity, or if it's simply all the audience has been shown, and the other Hundred have yet to appear so vividly on-screen thus far (as Yatwer was depicted in the first trilogy, for example). I'm inclined toward it being a bit of both.

ETA:

That said, I don't think Yatwer was the entirety of the cause of the earthquake (Earwaque? Earwaquake, Earwake... whatever). All of her manipulations were mostly nudges  through people. The closest thing we saw was when the WLW's tenant building collapsed, and we got to see the cause-and-effect chain for hundreds of years in the past.

Maybe she nudged the builders to use mediocre materials in one part of the wall, or place a vulnerable point of the wall directly over the faultline - this kind of thing. If she knew there would be an ground-shaking-event such a thing would be fairly reasonable. Like you said, it opens up to many questions if its as simple as "Yatwer reached down to Earwa, and with her hands, split the ground asunder".

The earthquake was actually caused by Momas, not Yatwer, for what it's worth. Not sure how I'd even define "cause" here really, as you implied.

Also, the one possible outlier among Yatwer's interventions being more like nudges (which I otherwise agree with) is when she embodies herself out of dead sranc. The actual motivation for the characters is still sort of in the "nudge" category, but so far as outright displays of power over material reality, it's a pretty big one.

Idle thought: it's interesting that Yatwer and Gilgaol both manifest (in their own fashion) using the remains of the dead. Can't help but be reminded of how Sil is described as "wearing the festering bodies" of the fallen.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 01:26:30 pm by FB »

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2017, 10:23:49 pm »
Oh, was it Momas? I though Psatma said Yatwer, maybe Esmi says Momas right? Could be either/both/neither lol.
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The Black Light

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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2017, 10:53:34 pm »
Ajokli's prophecy? I'm not quite sure I remember something like that, can you explain it? It seems I need an Elju.
You know nothing of war. War is dark. Black as pitch. It is not a God. It does not laugh or weep. It rewards neither skill nor daring. It is not a trial of souls, not the measure of wills. Even less it is a tool, a means to some womanish end. It is merely the place where the iron bones of the earth meet the hollow bones of men and break them.

Redeagl

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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2017, 11:32:23 pm »
Oh, was it Momas? I though Psatma said Yatwer, maybe Esmi says Momas right? Could be either/both/neither lol.
The Hundred dosen't look like they are very co-operative, also I am sure that it was mentioned somewhere that earthquakes were Momas' business. The earthquake also partially served Yatwer's interests so you could be right in the end.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2017, 11:39:44 pm »
Oh, was it Momas? I though Psatma said Yatwer, maybe Esmi says Momas right? Could be either/both/neither lol.

Bakker "confirmed" that the earthquakes were sent by Momas in the Westeros Q&A a little whiles back (and I have no clue how anyone was supposed to figure that out from the text, though it does make sense in retrospect). But yeah, either way it seemed like a joint operation haha.


Ajokli's prophecy? I'm not quite sure I remember something like that, can you explain it? It seems I need an Elju.

Hm, do you mean the Celmomian Prophecy I mentioned? Here's the description of what Celmomas sees:
Quote
"I see him so clearly!" the high King gasped. "He's taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!"
Gilgaol, War, come to claim him... Come to save, despite everything.
"Shush.. Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming."
The visions eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleaned above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins--the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.
Gilgaol, the Dread Father of Death, the All-Taker.
Brave, broken King...
He did not so much fly toward the high King as grow, bigger and bigger, bloating until he blotted the Whirlwind, crowded the very sky. Fire sheathed and pulsed across his four horns, streams that plummeted in skyward oblivion. He opened his hands, and lo! Another stood within the curved palms, bright as a ceremonial knife. A Norsirai, though his beard was squared and plaited in the fashion of Shir and Kyraneas. His dress was strange, and his arms and armor for the glint of Nonmen metals. Two decapitated heads swung from his girdle...
Behold the son of a hundred fathers...
Behold the end of the World...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 01:28:14 pm by FB »

Pig Teeth Shines

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2017, 11:52:44 pm »
Oh, was it Momas? I though Psatma said Yatwer, maybe Esmi says Momas right? Could be either/both/neither lol.

Bakker "confirmed" that the earthquakes were sent by Momas in the Westeros Q&A a little whiles back (and I have no clue how anyone was supposed to figure that out from the text, though it does make sense in retrospect). But yeah, either way it seemed like a joint operation haha.


Ajokli's prophecy? I'm not quite sure I remember something like that, can you explain it? It seems I need an Elju.

Hm, do you mean the Celmomian Prophecy I mentioned? Here's the description of what Celmomas sees:

"I see him so clearly!" the high King gasped. "He's taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!"
Gilgaol, War, come to claim him... Come to save, despite everything.
"Shush.. Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming."
The visions eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleaned above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins--the Spoils. Bones embodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.
Gilgaol, the Dread Father of Death, the All-Taker.
Brave, broken King...
He did not so much fly toward the high King as grow, bigger and bigger, bloating until he blotted the Whirlwind, crowded the very sky. Fire sheathed and pulsed across his four horns, streams that plummeted in skyward oblivion. He opened his hands, and lo! Another stood within the curved palms, bright as a ceremonial knife. A Norsirai, though his beard was squared and plaited in the fashion of Shir and Kyraneas. His dress was strange, and his arms and armor for the glint of Nonmen metals. Two decapitated heads swung from his girdle...
Behold the son of a hundred fathers...
Behold the end of the World...
Four golden horns! Definitely looks like that was Anokli not Gilgaol, however the prophecy is strange, for all we know Ajokli can't see the Apocalypse. Crackpot thought: Kellhus have been"editing" Akka's dreams to decive him for some goal, remember in TTT when Kellhus had a 5 minute secret conversation with Seswatha ?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 11:57:40 pm by Pig Teeth Shines »

Francis Buck

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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 12:05:33 am »
Yeah,the four golden horns are definitely interesting. I have a suspicion that the entity described there is actually some kind of amalgamation of the Gods, which Celmomas simply interprets as War. The descriptions are very interpretive for sure. And badass as fuck.

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 12:17:34 am »
Yup, that's what I was referancing. Goldy-horns there sounds like the A-man. 4 horns ... four horned brother.... sounds like Ajokli lol.

Another reason for that, at least for me, is celmomas was pretty dilusional. I think if the god that apeared looked like a pregnant woman he still would have figured it was Gilgaol. Making the mistake that his seed would save the world rather than end it is pretty big, so his idea of which god was there doesn't sway me.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 12:35:50 am »
Yup, that's what I was referancing. Goldy-horns there sounds like the A-man. 4 horns ... four horned brother.... sounds like Ajokli lol.

Another reason for that, at least for me, is celmomas was pretty dilusional. I think if the god that apeared looked like a pregnant woman he still would have figured it was Gilgaol. Making the mistake that his seed would save the world rather than end it is pretty big, so his idea of which god was there doesn't sway me.

Interesting, what makes you so sure Celmomas was mistaken out of curiosity? The phrasing was pretty interpretive to me. And after all, if the vision IS of Ajokli, can we really take his word for it?

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 01:15:27 am »
Interesting, what makes you so sure Celmomas was mistaken out of curiosity? The phrasing was pretty interpretive to me.
Its as interpretive as anything else.
I find it significant that his four horns are mentioned twice in a single passage. It draws needless attention to that attribute, and imo that's a hint to the reader.
Like I said, Celmomas is delerious, and I think this whole scene is from his perspective, right? Its not from the omnipotent third-person, nor is it Seswatha. Everthying we see and hear in this scene is interpreted through the lens of a dying Celmomas. He sees a God, and he sees what he thinks is his son. But what does the god say? Simply:
Behold the son of a hundred fathers
Behold the end of the world

We know how he interpreted this because of what he tells Seswatha: that his son will come and save the world. That's really the crux of my interpretation - that Celmomas was so out of it at this point that he misinterpreted "your son will destroy the world" as "your son will save the world". It's a pretty huge freudian slip, thus, the entirety of the scene is called into question.
Circle back to the horns, again pointed out to us twice, and I think that Ajokli is the God here, not Gilgaol.

Granted, that's a bit of a stretch. After looking back at it, the rest of the description could pretty well be what you would expect the God of War to be, and not so much the Trickster. Nubile virgins, fields of smoking burning dead, wreathed in flames - that sounds more like a god of war than a god of shadows, assasins, and trickery. More Thor than Loki.


And after all, if the vision IS of Ajokli, can we really take his word for it?
Hmmm. Good question. Maybe that's the point of Celmomas' confusion? He tricked the King into starting a prophecy that leads the world to its doom. Without the prophesy, Kellhus might not have been able to co-opt the Mandate, never gained the gnosis. He would have had to war with the Mandate to wrest control of the Three Seas from them, losing many schoolmen in the process, possibly setting him back decades. With the prophecy however, Kellhus walks conditioned ground.
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themerchant

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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 09:25:54 am »
He doesn't have 4 horns. His crown does.

A crown gleaned above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins--the Spoils.

Also aren't his priests hereditary positions? Jives with the sons of a 100 fathers line as well.





Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 12:37:18 pm »
I don't think so. Two separate clauses there. His crown and his horns. That the horns are golden confused the issue.

It would be weird to, again, call out the horns twice if they were just part of a silly crown. It needlessly confuses the issue because Ajokli is synonymous with four horns.

Imo there's no other reason for this other than to identify Ajokli.

I don't like th 100 fathers line either lol. Though I guess that it symbolizes 100 generations. Also, 100 fathers, 100 gods... palilidolia (sp).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:53:08 pm by Wilshire »
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themerchant

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 03:57:22 pm »
What are the nubile virgins clutching then? The horns on his head? Aren't they a third clause?

So he has horns, a crown and 4 nubile virgins on his head. Presumably the virgins are clutching his horns so they don't fall off :P

or does he have a crown with the ornamentation of 4 nubile virgins clutching 4 horns.? Called the "Spoils" presumably of war.

Why would ajokli have the spoils of war on his head. Ajokli is indeed described as the 4 horned brother, but he is also fat with an oversized penis as well. So presumably he kept his scalp added a crown and some nubile virgins and changed his body.