[TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 03:51:15 pm »
My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.

I concur.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2017, 02:45:32 pm »
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.

Well, I am forced to abandon my theory that Kellhus teleported to the palace during the battle with Meppa, since Kellhus tells Esmenet that Fanayal is dead. That clearly establishes a timeline for Kellhus: He arrives in Momemn, kills Fanayal, tosses Psatma, vanquishes Meppa, transforms Malowebi, and then he goes to the palace to "salvage what [he] can".

My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

OK. So apparently Malowebi's head (great band name, btw...) is on Kellhus' girdle (not such a good band name, imho...). That's believable. Barely. As for the second Decapitant's head being Kosoter's....I don't buy it. Where's Ciphrang- Kosoter? Where's the scene of Kellhus reanimating the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus even find the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus find Sarl, who is in possession of Kosoter's head? Questions.....

Speaking of questions, this new timeline leads to a new speculative question: Who survives the earthquake? It seems clear to me that Issiral does not survive; however, does anyone else die? Kellhus?  Esmenet?  Kelmomas?

God,  I hope Kelmomas is dead. I'm tired of his sorry ass.
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profgrape

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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2017, 03:05:35 pm »
Speaking of questions, this new timeline leads to a new speculative question: Who survives the earthquake? It seems clear to me that Issiral does not survive; however, does anyone else die? Kellhus?  Esmenet?  Kelmomas?

God,  I hope Kelmomas is dead. I'm tired of his sorry ass.

On my first read (the ARC), I came away thinking that Esme was dead.  But on re-reads (released version), it seems pretty obvious that Issiral is the one who dies.  Consider this bit:

Quote
[Kellmomas] saw the man he had mistook for Ajokli fall to his knees between tumbling immensities.  He saw it then, the terror of ignorance that is the curse of mortality; he apprehended the man's sickening humanity the instant stone clapped it into oblivion.

I interpret "stone clapped it into oblivion" as Issiral becoming a panini sandwich.

As I gave away my ARC, I don't actually know whether there's a difference in the text, or if I just read it so fast that I missed it. 

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2017, 03:47:05 pm »
As I gave away my ARC, I don't actually know whether there's a difference in the text, or if I just read it so fast that I missed it. 
For what its worth, its extremely unlikely that there were any changes from ARC to Release. Pre-ARC versions, like what Madness got years ago for TGO, or whoever received those spiral bound copies of TUC, are very likely to have changes. However, once the book gets to ARC, especially for a mediocre publishing house like Overlook, it might as well be the final cut.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

themerchant

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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2017, 04:03:49 pm »
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.

Well, I am forced to abandon my theory that Kellhus teleported to the palace during the battle with Meppa, since Kellhus tells Esmenet that Fanayal is dead. That clearly establishes a timeline for Kellhus: He arrives in Momemn, kills Fanayal, tosses Psatma, vanquishes Meppa, transforms Malowebi, and then he goes to the palace to "salvage what [he] can".

My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

OK. So apparently Malowebi's head (great band name, btw...) is on Kellhus' girdle (not such a good band name, imho...). That's believable. Barely. As for the second Decapitant's head being Kosoter's....I don't buy it. Where's Ciphrang- Kosoter? Where's the scene of Kellhus reanimating the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus even find the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus find Sarl, who is in possession of Kosoter's head? Questions.....



Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2017, 04:34:53 pm »
Quote from: themerchant
Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.

So your argument is that at some point Kellhus beheaded Kosoter and reanimated him with one of the Decapitants. As a result of doing so, the Decapitant's head sorcerously takes on the form of Kosoter's head, and that's why throughout TJE and TWLW Demon-Kosoter looks like Kosoter.

Myself, I envision the sorcerous transformation of Malowebi as one that has Malowebi's body fused to the Ciphrang's head, and the resulting abomination does not look like Malowebi. That's why I had so much trouble with Kellhus still having two Decapitants  in the palace scene.

Your theory does have the benefit of clearing that matter up. Do we have any evidence that the Metagnosis can accomplish this type of transformation? Or is this something Kellhus adapted from the Daimos?

You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



I love the idea of Demon-Malowebi returning to Zeum looking all Ciphranged-up: "What the fuck is this thing? And why is it wearing Morgan Freeman's clothes?"
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 04:37:51 pm by Beardfisher King »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2017, 06:00:40 pm »
I thought it was transformed to look like the original head once placed. Seems hardly worth the effort if the thing looked like a Demon.

I doubt Kosotor would have been beheaded by surprise, and his re-decapitated-ciphrange-head subsequently tied to another's beard without anyone realize or mentioning it. For one, he'd be more powerful than that, and two, I'd imagine that once redecapitated it would transform back to ciphrange.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2017, 10:49:56 pm »
I thought it was transformed to look like the original head once placed. Seems hardly worth the effort if the thing looked like a Demon.

I doubt Kosotor would have been beheaded by surprise, and his re-decapitated-ciphrange-head subsequently tied to another's beard without anyone realize or mentioning it. For one, he'd be more powerful than that, and two, I'd imagine that once redecapitated it would transform back to ciphrange.

When you suggested that it wouldn't be worth the effort if the thing didn't look like Malowebi, it made me think about what Kellhus is trying to accomplish.

For starters, those Decapitants are extremely valuable, now that we know they can be reanimated and commanded. Second, they do not reanimate in their original (?) form; rather, they take the form of the body to which they're fused. So Kellhus now has an agent, who appears to be Malowebi, that he has sent on a mission to end the line of Nganka'kull. Presumably, that's a mission within the demon's scope. It will be interesting to see to what purpose Kellhus uses the second Decapitant.

Speaking of transformations, this thread appears to be turning into a discussion of the Decapitants. Also, I never thought I'd see the word "redecapitated" used in a coherent sentence. The wonders of fantasy fiction. Well done, Wilshire!
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2017, 11:13:47 pm »
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.
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MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2017, 04:08:35 am »
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.

Well, I tell you what sold me on the idea if Malowebi and maybe Kosoter also on his belt. When they are decapitated, hence dead, they transform into what they would be in the Outside. So it's not like switching places with each other. The Ciphrang takes the look of Malowebi, but Malowebi was damned and would be a Ciphrang (or something near it) on the Outside. Just my logic.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2017, 12:15:00 pm »
Quote from: themerchant
Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.

So your argument is that at some point Kellhus beheaded Kosoter and reanimated him with one of the Decapitants. As a result of doing so, the Decapitant's head sorcerously takes on the form of Kosoter's head, and that's why throughout TJE and TWLW Demon-Kosoter looks like Kosoter.

Myself, I envision the sorcerous transformation of Malowebi as one that has Malowebi's body fused to the Ciphrang's head, and the resulting abomination does not look like Malowebi. That's why I had so much trouble with Kellhus still having two Decapitants  in the palace scene.

Your theory does have the benefit of clearing that matter up. Do we have any evidence that the Metagnosis can accomplish this type of transformation? Or is this something Kellhus adapted from the Daimos?

You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



I love the idea of Demon-Malowebi returning to Zeum looking all Ciphranged-up: "What the fuck is this thing? And why is it wearing Morgan Freeman's clothes?"

I'm trying to construct a reason for Kellhus having two decapitants on his belt when he goes to see Esmi, as it seems like he put one of them on Malowebi neck and fused it to his body.

Malowbi seeing himself reborn in demonic replica as stated in the books was interpreted by me to mean the demon took on the exact form of him. Then Kellhus has two heads when he goes to meet Esmi and ostensibly his fate at the hands of the WLW. The only spare head kicking around is Malowebi's. So i assumed he put that on his girdle. Yet it is described as a ciphrang. So if the demons head turns into his replica, then i thought the converse could occur.

It's hardly airtight but the best explanation i can think of that can cover the bases best. It's more my best effort to fling a blanket over every point as opposed to being deduced logically :D


themerchant

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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2017, 12:18:34 pm »
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.

asked to touch him and they sort of clapsed hands and slid their fingers off each other, don't think they touched his face. I could be wrong though, just what my memory says happened. But i walk into rooms sometimes and forget why i came in. So don#t take anything i say as gospel :p

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2017, 12:35:05 pm »
But i walk into rooms sometimes and forget why i came in. So don#t take anything i say as gospel :p

Hey, who the hell doesn't do that? I will go into a room, forget why I came in, then go out and then forget why I left that room. The only cure? See if I can find the fridge and grab a beer. Then look for the bottle opener. Voila, a new project!  :)
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson