[TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO

  • 27 Replies
  • 2267 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« on: March 15, 2017, 03:47:57 pm »
OK, unfortunately I don't have TGO at hand, but I found myself completely at sea at the end of TGO. Bakker is shifting back and forth from the scene with Kellhus, Esmi, Kelmomas, and the Narindar to the scene with P-splat-ma (h/t to another denizen of the TSA forum...), Kellhus, Meppa and Malowebi.

My question: is the narrative timeline linear? IIRC, Kellhus finishes the battle with Meppa and then grabs Malowebi, who asks, "What are you?" Kellhus responds, "Weary." Then Bakker shifts to the final scene in the palace, then shifts back to the creation of Malowebi 2.0. Anyone have a clue about the actual order of events?

BTW, if my Android device doesn't cease auto-correcting Bakker's name to "Banker", someone is getting a very stern letter....
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 04:58:56 pm »
Until proven otherwise, I think it is just an editing quirk/mistake/decision.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2017, 05:41:01 pm »
Until proven otherwise, I think it is just an editing quirk/mistake/decision.

I guess my question is: When does Kellhus encounter the Narindar et al? Is it after he sends Malowebi 2.0 on his demonic way? During the battle with Meppa? Before? I was trying to determine the sequence of events from the earthquake, but I'm not sure that's conclusive.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 06:11:18 pm »
I'll look into it later tonight (hopefully). Read through the last section. I just cant remember at this point what the sequence is supposed to be if you assume its editing errors and not time-traveling-doppelgangers.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 11:02:52 pm »
The way I read it, we witness a fork in the Decision Tree/ Tree of Events either "unhappen" or become obsolete/ impossible. It's so far unclear to me what exactly triggers this. To me it's a ripple in the timeflow somewhat like what happens just before Korringhus had his final revelation.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Redeagl

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Pun Master
  • Posts: 413
  • WHAT AM I ?
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 11:18:42 pm »
My interpretation was Kellhus defeats Meppa, beheads Malowebi, return to the palace and encounter TWLW. But yes there was definitely bad editing in that chapter.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2017, 12:03:12 am »
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2017, 03:28:20 am »
I think it's meant to be Malowebi's reliving his doom. As if his soul is trapped (see his reference to the Pursing) and he's continuously experiencing his last moments.

That being said, I didn't interpret it this way until I re-read the section today. 

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2017, 04:13:02 am »
I think it's meant to be Malowebi's reliving his doom. As if his soul is trapped (see his reference to the Pursing) and he's continuously experiencing his last moments.

That being said, I didn't interpret it this way until I re-read the section today. 

Interesting, but I'm not sure he's reliving his last moments. Instead, Bakker gives us a particularly intense look of Malowebi's death from his doomed POV. I agree about the Pursing; I just don't see any hint of circularity.

My interpretation was Kellhus defeats Meppa, beheads Malowebi, return to the palace and encounter TWLW. But yes there was definitely bad editing in that chapter.

Not sure it was the fault of any perfidious editors. Actually, it's effective writing: imho, the disorienting shifts of POV and location give the reader some sense of what it must be like to encounter Kellhus in extremis. As Malowebi asks, "What are you?"

But your timeline is a valid one. Especially if you accept....

I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

Wow! I like this! But I lean to the theory that Kellhus visits the palace during the battle with Meppa. IIRC, Kellhus disappears at least once during the battle.

The way I read it, we witness a fork in the Decision Tree/ Tree of Events either "unhappen" or become obsolete/ impossible. It's so far unclear to me what exactly triggers this. To me it's a ripple in the timeflow somewhat like what happens just before Korringhus had his final revelation.

This explanation is above my pay grade. There are definitely timeflow difficulties, and timeflow difficulties always make my head hurt.

The shifting narrative style is very like that of the climax of TTT. I'm willing to wager that TUC ends in a blazingly virtuosic fugue of interlocking narrative POVs.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 04:27:43 pm »
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 09:36:19 pm »
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 11:34:45 pm »
You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"


BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 01:22:00 am »
You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



Ha ha! That's a long shot, but I like the way you think. Hey, that would make a great thread: "Possible opening lines for TUC".
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 03:22:41 pm »
I think that Malowebi is on Kellhus's belt. Just it doesn't look like Malowebi pre-death, but post-death. Hence, he looks like a Ciphrang an entity of the Outside.

ETA: if I remember correctly, Malowebi remarks that after the transformation he sees a Malowebi that isn't truly Malowebi. What I am saying is Demon-Malowebi looks exactly like Malowebi. Probably the same with the Captain. So, I'd assume, at the end of TGO, we have Ciphrang Malowebi and Ciphrang whoever on Kellhus's belt.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 03:26:29 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 03:49:45 pm »
My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.