Serwa and Bakker's philosphy

  • 9 Replies
  • 1019 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Askarn

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 2
  • What wouldn't Aurang do?
    • View Profile
« on: April 08, 2017, 02:59:51 am »
During Serwa's point of view, she recalls discovering that Esmenet (and everyone else except Kellhus) was "unreal". On reflection this seems to me to be a corollary of the Dunyain belief that what comes before determines what comes afterwards. Esmenet cannot change what came before, thus her actions are predetermined. People are merely stones rolling down a hill; only a self-moving soul is real in that its thoughts/actions have consequences.

Anyway what I was wonder is whether this is the central philosophical concern that Bakker has out of universe? That a sufficiently analyzed person/consciousness is merely a chain reaction of synapse firing in response to external stimuli. If our thoughts are merely the result of physical processes then our actions are no more the result of "choice" than a planet's orbit. Or am I on completely the wrong track here?

Guess this is less a question about TGO itself than about Bakker.


Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 08:15:10 am »
Oh this is good. I like it.
I need to find words to express thoughts now.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4928
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 09:17:25 am »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Askarn :).

Narrative aside, I don't know if that is Bakker's central out of text commitment. What you've described seems to be a possibility that extends from his arguments, though.

My bet is that Bakker is trying to convince people that, like perceptual thresholds, there exist a variety of thresholds to our more complex cognition; by his argument specifically academic philosophy and the greater humanities by extension. I think he'd rather be thinking about the bestiary but in over half a decade on the blog he's still convincing people that something like flicker fusion could have implications for our experience of consciousness and our pursuit of philosophy.

Probably not to the thread, though.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2017, 11:43:17 am »
Doesn't she also see inanimate objects as not real as well? Which lends itself to this interpretation as well.

Sorweel is now real most likely as a consequence of having a co-mingled soul via the Amiolas.


Askarn

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 2
  • What wouldn't Aurang do?
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2017, 12:29:30 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Askarn :).

Narrative aside, I don't know if that is Bakker's central out of text commitment. What you've described seems to be a possibility that extends from his arguments, though.

My bet is that Bakker is trying to convince people that, like perceptual thresholds, there exist a variety of thresholds to our more complex cognition; by his argument specifically academic philosophy and the greater humanities by extension. I think he'd rather be thinking about the bestiary but in over half a decade on the blog he's still convincing people that something like flicker fusion could have implications for our experience of consciousness and our pursuit of philosophy.

Probably not to the thread, though.

Thanks, nice to be here. On reflection, you're right, I let myself get a bit carried away regarding the importance of the concept. Then again, I'd probably have been disappointed if it was all that simple!

Doesn't she also see inanimate objects as not real as well? Which lends itself to this interpretation as well.

Sorweel is now real most likely as a consequence of having a co-mingled soul via the Amiolas.



Indeed, she started off with seeing (realizing?) inanimate objects as unreal and later discovered that people we unreal. Admittedly I'm still a bit shaky on why not being self-moving makes things unreal. Best that I can come up with is the idea that, having no will, they can be changed by the Real freely and thus have no existence independent of the Real.

I like the idea of the Amiolas making Sorweel real.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4886
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 12:43:25 pm »
Welcome!

The Second Apocalypse and all of Bakker's works are connected to his philosophies. However, I'm don't think that whatever it is you are describing - I'm not a philosophy guy, so I'm not sure the correct term - is not the central argument/concern .

Certainly though if you read some of his other stuff, there seems to be a thread connecting them all. There's concerns about the Semantic Apocalypse, is the death of real meaning due to scientific advances. But im rapidly going out of my depth here. I do think what your saying extends from Bakker's argument, but its not the central axiom       
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 08:48:23 pm »
My understanding of the most real world related, prime philosophical message of the Second Apocalypse is determinism. Men are ruled by a myriad of innate urges, the Legion Within, without ever realizing that their actions do not belong to their free will, but to these urges. The DŻnyain realize this, and even though they can't entirely free themselves, they can abuse it to rule others. To me, Serwa thinking that others were not real was an extension of the DŻnyain philosophy, just put in a unique kind of way because she did not get the full DŻnyain education, and is worldborn.

Why does she think Sorweel is "real", though? Surely, the Nonmen Sorweel merged with didn't make him free of the determinism, as he seemed as ruled by his passions as any man, if not more. I think at that point, Serwa kind of had a crush on Sorweel, because he was suddenly this hardass ancient soul who also happened to save her life and trigger the downfall of the collaborator Nonmen (and Serwa is still worldborn, after all - and it seems like even Kellhus fell in love with Esmenet judging by that line about how losing her will sink his heart into ruin or something like that), but it'll probably get explained better in the next book. I do feel like Bakker is setting things up for a second generation kind of thing, with Sorweel and Serwa, Kelmomas and Kellhus's full blooded DŻnyain grandson, who has none of the DŻnyain anti-emotional conditioning but all of the intellect.

Athorn "FB" Gallizur

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 03:28:00 am »
My understanding of the most real world related, prime philosophical message of the Second Apocalypse is determinism. Men are ruled by a myriad of innate urges, the Legion Within, without ever realizing that their actions do not belong to their free will, but to these urges. The DŻnyain realize this, and even though they can't entirely free themselves, they can abuse it to rule others. To me, Serwa thinking that others were not real was an extension of the DŻnyain philosophy, just put in a unique kind of way because she did not get the full DŻnyain education, and is worldborn.

Why does she think Sorweel is "real", though? Surely, the Nonmen Sorweel merged with didn't make him free of the determinism, as he seemed as ruled by his passions as any man, if not more. I think at that point, Serwa kind of had a crush on Sorweel, because he was suddenly this hardass ancient soul who also happened to save her life and trigger the downfall of the collaborator Nonmen (and Serwa is still worldborn, after all - and it seems like even Kellhus fell in love with Esmenet judging by that line about how losing her will sink his heart into ruin or something like that), but it'll probably get explained better in the next book. I do feel like Bakker is setting things up for a second generation kind of thing, with Sorweel and Serwa, Kelmomas and Kellhus's full blooded DŻnyain grandson, who has none of the DŻnyain anti-emotional conditioning but all of the intellect.

I agree, particularly the latter part regarding a second generation and the stuff about Sorweel and Serwa. At this point, I'm almost 100% on-board the theory that Sorweel is in-fact a son of Kellhus, making Sorweel and Serwa's potential romantic relationship a form of incest. Plus it would make Sorweel the "Luke Skywalker" to Serwa's "Princess Leia", and I'm all for Star Wars analogues in TSA.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 06:05:29 am »

At this point, I'm almost 100% on-board the theory that Sorweel is in-fact a son of Kellhus, making Sorweel and Serwa's potential romantic relationship a form of incest. Plus it would make Sorweel the "Luke Skywalker" to Serwa's "Princess Leia", and I'm all for Star Wars analogues in TSA.

Can you please elaborate? I'm curious as to where you base this on.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4886
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2017, 01:49:10 pm »
No I really don't think so FB. Dunyain struggling to have children with worldborn is an intimate and central part of the worldbuilding, probably for this reason. Kellhus could only have children with a few women, and stopped looking after he found Esmi. That he found another one as the wife of the final conquested king 20 years prior to that conquest seems unreasonable.

He would have had to go pretty much straight from Shimeh, seduced Harweel's wife without him knowing, impregnated her, who then went on to having a physically and psycologicaly normal child, that somehow grew up normal without a dunyain father. Not only is it extremely unlikely that the first birth would have been normal (as it would have had to have been), we have many examples of what happens to Kellhus' halfbreeds who grow up without daddy's constant intervention, oversight, and training. They do not become normal functioning adults - they become lunatic sociopathic egomaniacs with a tendency to become serial killers. No son of Kellhus raised by some random guy is going to turn out be as demure and manipulatable as Sorweel.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:51:32 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.