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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2017, 05:37:26 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.

Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.

Haha.  I think post TGO, it's clear that there is some emotionalality there, but what isn' clear is how it is really effecting him.  Is it driving him, or is he simply considering it as yet another variable?  Not going to write another short book on it though, because it's really ambiguous in any case.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2017, 05:43:47 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.

Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.
Man, its not all about you sometimes. TH's position differs specifically and explicitly from your own. Don't steal credit :P , though yes there are similarities. (and regardless, lets encourage participation, not exclude it)

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MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2017, 05:59:48 pm »
Lol. It was a joke. And, what is this, "it's not all about you"? When has it ever been about mme, lol.

ETA: I wasn't trying to discourage participation, as I said him and I thought alike. In all honestly there really is not much difference in what TH proposed. I've always thought that Kellhus is becoming more human, through emotion. Those emotions are what make him want to "save" humanity. TaoHorror worded it a bit differently, same gist though.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 06:13:36 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2017, 06:23:12 pm »
I'd have to read through TH's post again more closely but I didn't really interpret him as reflecting on Kellhus and emotions as you have, MSJ. I think that's what Wilshire was jokingly trying to point out - it reads more as projection on your part.

Then again, we all read and interpret to support our own personal theoretical commitments either way, moer or less. I just think Wilshire was suggesting there is less MSJ in TH's post than you seem to perceive.

Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2017, 06:27:31 pm »
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).

 :P

What did he know...  ;)

Not that I am fully buying it, really...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2017, 06:30:51 pm »
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).

 :P

What did he know...  ;)

Not that I am fully buying it, really...

Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2017, 06:40:16 pm »
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).

Old Me figured the the No-God was simply just a tool.  New Me knows that.  So I guess we are getting somewhere, even if that is still the middle of nowhere, haha.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2017, 06:46:24 pm »
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2017, 08:15:21 pm »
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).

Old Me figured the the No-God was simply just a tool.  New Me knows that.  So I guess we are getting somewhere, even if that is still the middle of nowhere, haha.

H COMES BEFORE!!!

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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2017, 08:57:22 pm »
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2017, 10:41:48 pm »
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.

Wilshire was quoting different sections of TaoHorror's post and I just quoted his response to that specific part of the post. I meant no harm by it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2017, 10:59:02 pm »
All good, friend :).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2017, 12:00:10 am »
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.

Wilshire was quoting different sections of TaoHorror's post and I just quoted his response to that specific part of the post. I meant no harm by it.

Just breakin' your balls man. I threw the emoticon in there to try and disarm my post a bit - I come off as overly serious all the time, not your fault.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2017, 02:38:48 am »
Normally I would thank you all for the kindness you gave me in responding to my post – but Wilshire MANDATED me not to … so a warm fuck you to all of you. I’ve exposed you, Wilshire, as being a Mandate schoolman – careful, I have a nice selection of chorea, one with your name etched on it … hee, hee – all from love, my man, just rockin on your “busting balls” comment.  ;D

So, it comes down to what is K doing … appears none of us know for sure yet. I guess I give Esmenet’s explanation much credit when she tells the girl in the previous book about Kellhus deceiving/using everyone to save everyone’s lives. If that is true, if Esmenet is accurate, then the question is motivation. Either K doesn’t want to be lonely, even the company of children is better than no one at all or he feels connected to humanity in some way. I think we connect with each other in a more interesting way than evolution can explain – love. We love people who have died and life loss can reduce people to ruins ( hard to explain the evolutionary benefit of enduring severe trauma for the departed – sadness to ensure we avoid it ourselves could be evolution, but carrying on for years … ). Either he’s following evolutionary instinct to ensure humanity endures ( which I think we all agree his Duynain conditioning would prohibit this ) or he at bare minimum “likes” humanity enough to dedicate a good portion of his life to saving it.

If indeed he conned his way to power ( appear he did, he wasn’t a prince among other lies/deceptions ), hard to imagine it was as another human does simply for the sake of power – seems his Dunyain mind would not find pleasure with power, especially over those he manipulates so easily.

Seems there’s more purpose to his design than to simply perform a task – he’s into it. I don’t think he’s compelled out of sense of duty to save us ( evolution ) nor is he doing it just to avoid loneliness ( a good reason, but seems more to it ) … I get a sense of joy in him figuring it out ( maybe the Dunyain drive to figure everything out ) and enjoys “hanging” with humans. Could be he’s learning how to love.

I like Beard’s way of putting it, he left Dunyain and returned a man. The celebration of what it is to really be human, to feel as a human can - but at the same time, knowing we can be more. Through this whole madness of crazed violence, I see beauty – humanity standing, taking flight. Saubon's response when he realized certain doom at Dagliash to keep on fighting was amazing - he knew this is what it is to feel truly alive, risking your life for something more and not just sitting in the air conditioning as I am now typing away.

I think Bakker’s self-proclaimed cynicism doesn’t stem from a broken heart of humanity falling short or consumed with pettiness, but a happy stare at what we can be. This isn’t a horror novel – it’s beauty born from horror, perhaps even a romance novel ( sorry, had to throw in the romance novel bit to fuck with you ).
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2017, 11:09:54 am »
I think the Voice, and Kellhus' acknowledgement of the Voice as a "guiding" factor, kind of confounds at least something of the idea that Kellhus aim is entirely altruistic, or based off some idealistic view of humanity.

Neither the status quo, being the exploitation of the souled to sate the 100's hunger, nor the polar opposite of the Consult's plan to end it all entirely are really sustainable outcomes.  Kellhus realizes that the system is broken and a new system is needed.  While this results in a "saving" of humanity, all the better.  Kellhus is the eschaton for real.  Not in the sense that Earwa is dead, but in the send that the Old Times are over and a New Order is beginning.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira