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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2017, 11:17:44 am »
Credit where credit is due, Tao; it was Madness who came up with the "Dūnyain --> man" idea.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2017, 12:47:02 pm »
H ( is that a Hannibal reference? ): "a New System is needed" ... why would he conclude that if he didn't care? A new system for whom? The people he doesn't care about? Altuism is not necessarily the same thing as "liking". It appears he at least likes humanity, otherwise, why bother? The joy of power over the ants? That seems beneath him. But remember, K felt empathy for the defective he was studying and then consciously cast it aside "deciding" it was weakness to feel for a "defective" ... it appears he was born with empathy - did the horror of the world kill it? Does he try to kill it off, himself? Can he ( or anyone ) kill off their emotions or do our emotional state simply changes when we try to kill it? If you're suggesting elevating humans to thwart the gods he hates, now that is interesting.

Beard: trying to follow you, you're proclaiming you're mad? Or someone in this forum changed your mind? Or I'm mad for suggesting K has emotions? Am I making excuses to validate why I "like" the guy? I don't like him, but admit I like the idea of humanity stomping out the aliens/Consult.

I still get confused about what the Consult actually are - I think I learned from my posts 3 years ago that they are humans/magi who teamed with the aliens and learned Tekne and now don't age and therefore have taken up the charge with the aliens to rid Earwa of humans ... please feel free to correct me on this, I'm still unclear.

Think the book stated "hundreds" of shriekers perished in the thousand thousand halls ... seems like an incredible blow to the Consult to lose so many. Perhaps Kellus lured the Consult to Ishual whereby a battle with the Dunyain would whittle down their numbers to make them weaker, easier to defeat? Even if smart tactics, K had no intention of returning to the Dunyain - at the very least shirking his homeland if not outright ridding himself of the pursuit of the Absolute. Either there are bigger fish to fry or he came to same realization his son did, just reacted differently to the realization, which makes sense since their first interaction with the "real" world were so different ( K met hordes of humans, but didn't encounter the Eye for years ( maybe not at all, not sure if he knew of Mimara's Eye ), while Survivor only met 2 who were hellbent on killing him, but meets the Eye right off the bat ). Circumstance plays a bigger role in our identity than we would own up to or like it to have.
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MSJ

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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2017, 01:21:19 pm »
Yes, throughout the whole series there are clues that Kellhus is not just a Dunyain with his only purpose to obtain Absolute. His convo with Moe, with "his heart would crash to ruin" if he lost Esme. The Circumfix, when he literally loses his shit because Sėrwe dies and he's responsible for it. I believe that he came back to Momemn to save Esme and the remnants of his Empire. He is hurt when he sees betrayal written on Esme's face. And then, there are other, tiny little clues scattered throughout the entire series.

Of course, he is Dunyain and those methods have a effect on his actions as well. Here's what I think. That once he felt love (Sėrwe and Esme) and that damnation is the only course you can take in the Outside, that is when he seen further than Moe. Moe's TTT was to destroy the Consult, whom he learned of through the skinspies. Kellhus has taken it further and wants to give humans a chance at salvation, as H said, to begin anew, a New Age.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 01:23:06 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2017, 01:56:36 pm »
H ( is that a Hannibal reference? ): "a New System is needed" ... why would he conclude that if he didn't care? A new system for whom? The people he doesn't care about? Altuism is not necessarily the same thing as "liking". It appears he at least likes humanity, otherwise, why bother? The joy of power over the ants? That seems beneath him. But remember, K felt empathy for the defective he was studying and then consciously cast it aside "deciding" it was weakness to feel for a "defective" ... it appears he was born with empathy - did the horror of the world kill it? Does he try to kill it off, himself? Can he ( or anyone ) kill off their emotions or do our emotional state simply changes when we try to kill it? If you're suggesting elevating humans to thwart the gods he hates, now that is interesting.

The name doesn't really reference anything too specific, it's just a short, easy-to-remember call-sign.  If it was, it would be to the Tool song H., but it's just where I got the idea, not really the song itself (although I do like that song).

On your point.  It's not really that he doesn't care.  My theory is not that he doesn't have emotions, or that he doesn't consider them, but rather that they are all just data to him.  This isn't really how we work, but it is how he works.  He doesn't just do something because it "seems right" or because he "feels it is right."  He simply does what must be done, because it must be done.  Sometimes, that is in line with how he feels.  Sometimes it is not.  I don't really buy that feeling is what is guiding him. In fact, I don't beleive it is his "rational mind" or the Probability Trance that guides him either.  The Thousandfold Thought is at once him and beyond him.  He is a gear in it's working as much as he is the engine driving it.

To attempt to summarize my position more succictly, I beleive he is something of "emotion considering" not "emotion driven."

I still get confused about what the Consult actually are - I think I learned from my posts 3 years ago that they are humans/magi who teamed with the aliens and learned Tekne and now don't age and therefore have taken up the charge with the aliens to rid Earwa of humans ... please feel free to correct me on this, I'm still unclear.

Basically, yes, but there is a little more to it.  Have you read the Atrocity Tale, The False Sun yet?  It's free on Bakker's Blog.  I think it will give you a little more understanding of who they are.

Think the book stated "hundreds" of shriekers perished in the thousand thousand halls ... seems like an incredible blow to the Consult to lose so many. Perhaps Kellus lured the Consult to Ishual whereby a battle with the Dunyain would whittle down their numbers to make them weaker, easier to defeat? Even if smart tactics, K had no intention of returning to the Dunyain - at the very least shirking his homeland if not outright ridding himself of the pursuit of the Absolute. Either there are bigger fish to fry or he came to same realization his son did, just reacted differently to the realization, which makes sense since their first interaction with the "real" world were so different ( K met hordes of humans, but didn't encounter the Eye for years ( maybe not at all, not sure if he knew of Mimara's Eye ), while Survivor only met 2 who were hellbent on killing him, but meets the Eye right off the bat ). Circumstance plays a bigger role in our identity than we would own up to or like it to have.

I've posited elsewhere that the Dunyain are simply tools, no different than the Sranc, in the grand scheme of things.  In fact, TGO even parallels the two for us conveniently.  The Consult really doesn't understand Kellhus' motivation and so, in thinking that the Dunyain still had a role to play, they threw everything and the kitchen sink at them.  They simply where too much of a threat to leave out in the open.  But it was a honey-pot.

Kellhus had no intention of ever "reusing" the Dunyain.  Still, that is a risk that the Consult couldn't take.  A legion of meta-Gnositics is nothing to scoff at.  Bad enough as it is.  However, Kellhus already knew that, so it was a free move for him.

The Thousandfold Thought is prepared for all these eventualities, because it is predicated beyond Before and After.  Things happen before that only make sense after, a distinct violation of the natural laws.  And yet, that is why Kellhus is so wildly successful.  The Consult cannot precede him, because he has already preceded their every move.  The Thousandfold Thought comes not from the Here and Now, but they There and Future.  Only something outside (Outside) of time completely could really stand a chance.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2017, 02:35:19 pm »
Credit where credit is due, Tao; it was Madness who came up with the "Dūnyain --> man" idea.

Lol - I think I've said it once, just now. I don't know if it's something I "came up with" even back on ZTS.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 02:54:30 pm »
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness" ... I thought Beard was saying he said it from his own madness ( as in insanity ), maybe an idea he had but now thinking it was a bad one.

I am one confused mofo, thanks for bearing with me! I'm getting there.
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MSJ

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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2017, 03:15:00 pm »
Quote from:  H
On your point.  It's not really that he doesn't care.  My theory is not that he doesn't have emotions, or that he doesn't consider them, but rather that they are all just data to him.  This isn't really how we work, but it is how he works.  He doesn't just do something because it "seems right" or because he "feels it is right."  He simply does what must be done, because it must be done.  Sometimes, that is in line with how he feels.  Sometimes it is not.

I'm just pointing out how you're contradicting yourself here. You say he has no emotions, then go on to say that sometimes what he does, aligns with what he feels. Lol.

I get what your saying, Kellhus is indeed the tough nut to crack.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 03:34:59 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2017, 03:15:06 pm »
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness"

Bless your heart, sweet child :).
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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2017, 04:17:13 pm »
I'm just pointing out how you're contradicting yourself here. You say he has no emotions, then go on to say that sometimes what he does, aligns with what he feels. Lol.

I get what your saying, Kellhus is indeed the tough nut to crack.

No, I am saying he does have emotion, but I fail to see it being a driver of him.  Just because he considers the emotional aspect of actions, doesn't mean he is driven by them.

Sure, it's something of a semantic difference, but to me it's an important distinction.  The Thousandfold Thought is not a plan predicated on, or driven by, a feeling.  It's a rational (however unlikely) plan, based on itself making itself true, to a very specific (if unknown) aim.  I don't think it was formed by sentimentality, although it was possibly a part of it.  It's a rational choice, between life and death.  You don't really need too much emotion to feel that life is better than death.  You don't need it to choose salvation over damnation either.

I guess there is a case to be made, and I think you have made a good one, that Kellhus advocates for "everyone's" benefit, which is probably mostly true.  Yet, I still doubt it is for purely altruistic motives, or sentimental ones either.  He sure didn't advocate for Theli and that's his daughter.  But in the grand scheme of things, what happens to benefit Kellhus, happens to benefit humans as well.  It's not purely selfish, but not altruistic either.  It's somewhere in between.  It's still a rational plan though.

We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2017, 05:05:03 pm »
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness" ... I thought Beard was saying he said it from his own madness ( as in insanity ), maybe an idea he had but now thinking it was a bad one.

I am one confused mofo, thanks for bearing with me! I'm getting there.
Lmfao! That is hilarious, Tao!

What, I say, what would give you the slightest impression that I suffer from any.....misperception of reality or instability of temperament?

Btw, you should check out my "Name That Comic!" Contest. Deadline is Friday,  May 3rd, 10:00pm GMT. (5:00pm CDT). Now...would a crazy person start such a thread?
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2017, 06:52:36 pm »
No, no, no - hee, hee - I think you play with me. I don't know you, Beard - but definitely seem like the kind of chap I would like to get to know ( read: I dig your weirdness ). Right now I feel like Spider in Good Fellas ... I thought YOU said your take on Kellhus came from ... oh, sigh, nevermind.

Anyways, nothing of your expression on this forum yields evidence you sport an abnormal degree of mental challenges ( er, at least not to me ).

One thing I've culled from the reading - Kellhus likes to fuck! Apparently just about anything/anyone ... wouldn't surprise me if the Consult creeps up on him fucking a ( dead or live - or collection of both ) shranc. Makes me wonder if the whole selecting for genes thing yielded a strong strain of homosexuality with the Anasurimbors ( e.g. Moenghus with Cnuir, Kellhus with Proyas ). Or maybe his fucks are simply tools as well - no pleasure, eh, Kellhus?

Speaking of fucking and "discreet slaps", the scene with Sorweel pleasuring himself spying Serwa and Moenghus going at it - a ribbing at those of us who enjoy pornography?

- TH
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2017, 07:22:57 pm »
Yes, I jest....very kind compliment, thanks.

About Kellhus: I think his fucks are tools. Conditioning the Ground. But I also agree with the line of thought that argues the experience on the Circumfix changed Kellhus, and he is now more than a scrutinizing/calculating Dūnyain. Yet, he is still a Dūnyain. What a character!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 07:31:19 pm by Beardfisher King »
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2017, 07:59:46 pm »
Oh, and regarding (talk about le mōt juste!) the Sorweel-as-voyeur scene: perhaps you are right. It could also be, since it is the climax (so to speak) of Sorweel's arc in WLW, another cautionary warning about "digging too deep" and seeking after dangerous knowledge. Or just a brutal portrayal of human heartbreak. So many levels to Bakker's writing....
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

MSJ

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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2017, 09:32:11 pm »
We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.

Eh, all in good fun. Actually while I think my side of the argument is more of what I want. There's clues there, but I dont think we're to far apart to begin with. Its a little detail that's seperates why he is doing what he's doing. But..

(click to show/hide)

[EDIT Madness: Just specified your spoiler tag.]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 10:09:19 pm by Madness »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2017, 10:56:45 pm »
Hmm - still working on this whole blog thing, not just second-apocalypse.com ... In the above post I see a "spoiler tag" from The Unholy Consult - do I understand this correctly that if I click on it, some content of the next book is revealed/discussed? Hard to see how that can be given the book has not been released ... have some of you received advanced copies?
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