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MSJ

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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2017, 11:43:28 pm »
I didn't mean for it to sound like a correction. I actually thought i may have missed something and that's always a concern with this series.

No worries. And, I couldn't think of it earlier for some reason, but its at Kiyuth where the sorcerers step into the sky for the first time. Only saying this, because I was going to write Kyudea but I knew that was wrong. Cheers, Moosehunter and welcome to SA - The Slog of Slogs
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:59:47 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2017, 12:52:47 pm »
"missed something" ... "always a concern" ... glad someone said it out loud, LOL! Yeah, you could say I've missed a few things with this series - hence, so appreciative of the friendly help I get here figuring things out. Not sure how accurate, but the Prince of Nothing wikia timeline helped me a great deal sorting out a few things - manly how/who/what the origin of the Consult - for some reason, I struggled to pull that out from the novels. Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

H

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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2017, 01:20:31 pm »
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2017, 03:23:35 pm »
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

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« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2017, 04:02:15 pm »
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!

I'm not so sure it's that great, but I think it may be one of the "merest fractions."
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2017, 04:28:48 pm »
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

H

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« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2017, 04:34:05 pm »
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!

Not to mention it is already spoken for.  ;)
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2017, 05:28:30 pm »
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.

Hmm ... I like it ... Kellhus is out to "destroy" Hell ... or at least eliminate the mechanism for which humans are sent there. I think you may be on to something there, Hannibal ( can I call you, Hannibal? ... take it you don't want me to call you "Tool" given the recent exchange of references ).
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2017, 06:39:33 pm »
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!
Damn! Called out by Tao!

I'm sure I'll cook up just fine ... a comic/musician/cabdriver has to be a rare delicacy, don't you think?
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2017, 01:37:58 am »
You expect us to believe you're ACTUALLY a comic musician? The cab driver thing is even suspect, but ok. Upon second thought, I'm sure your music is quite funny. What bullshit instrument you claim to know how to play, the harmonica?

Warmly,
The Horror of the Tao
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2017, 02:02:14 am »
You expect us to believe you're ACTUALLY a comic musician? The cab driver thing is even suspect, but ok. Upon second thought, I'm sure your music is quite funny. What bullshit instrument you claim to know how to play, the harmonica?

Warmly,
The Horror of the Tao
The harmonica, as far as I can tell, is fairly difficult to play well, especially in a blues style. Lots of note-bending and over-blowing.

However, I do not play the harmonica.  I used to play piano fairly well, and still have some chops, although I couldn't cut it in a jazz session with any real players. I fool around with an African drum, the djembe, which is fun. And I've been singing in my church choir for 10 years now. I'm actually not good at melding comedy and music; separate endeavours.

As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.

Yours, 
The Fisher of Beards
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2017, 11:35:57 am »
As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.

Exactly! Why I questioned it! The LACK of those qualities expressed here drives my doubt ...

Hee, hee, you know I'm screwing with you, right? Was going for the whole question anything you claim if there's a shred of decency/competence required. Seems like you can take it, you're the rare comic Sylvendi in my eyes ( compliment intended ). If I could attend Zundanicon 2017, I would first show in disguise, scope out the situation, ensuring it's meant to be a "happy" reunion ( hoping that if it wasn't, all I would have to do is tell you I destroyed Ishual and you would let me go ).

Do you reveal you're "friendly" language you sport here in church? Or are you a skin spy there too?
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2017, 06:11:30 pm »
Damn! Another skewer! Right through the heart!

It's all taken in good fun, Tao! And no, there's no TSA badinage in church. Perhaps the very occasional sotto voce remark, to lighten a tense mood. Our choir director is a temperamental sort.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2017, 06:38:40 pm »
You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.

For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.

If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.

Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).

- TH
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Redeagl

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« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2017, 07:36:54 pm »
You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.

For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.

If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.

Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).

- TH
WHAT?! TSA is the funniest series ever. Filled with humour, Bakker is not gifted with the art?!!! Huh? Don't Akka and co literally roll on the floor laughing at Kellhus' jokes in TWP?
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers