The Tusk, the Timeline and our good friend Aurax

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profgrape

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« on: May 11, 2017, 08:30:30 pm »
There's some timeline weirdness with the Inchoroi giving the Tusk to Angeshrael, the Glamour being raised around Golgatterath and the Breaking of the Gates.

First, we can assume that not too much time lapsed between Angeshrael receiving the Tusk and the Four Tribes invading Earwa.  It might have been a few years but it's unlikely to have been longer. 

Second, while not stated explicitly, we can probably assume that the Breaking of the Gates happened *after* the Cuno-Inchoroi war.  And that officially ended with the Glamour being raised around Golgatterath and presumably, imprisoning the last two Inchoroi alive, Aurang and Aurax, in the Ark.

So how in the hell did an Inchoroi gift the Tusk to Angeshrael? 

A couple of potential options:

1. Continuity mistake.   It happens.

2. One of the Inchoroi wasn't actually imprisoned in the Ark.  Based on what we see in TFS, we can assume that Aurang was the one Shae and Mek released from the Ark.   That leaves Aurax.

If 2) is right, it means that Aurax was out of the Ark doing nefarious things for over a thousand years before Aurang was freed.    Including impersonating Huyselt and giving the Tusk to the Eannan Men.

From that point, Aurax might have died or might have laid low until Aurang was freed.  Hell, he might still be roaming the Three Seas for all we know.

Redeagl

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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 08:48:39 pm »
"From that point, Aurax might have died or might have laid low until Aurang was freed.  Hell, he might still be roaming the Three Seas for all we know."
Möenghus= Aurax confirmed
Also Aurax may haven't left Eanna. This is shit. He made skin-spies.Aurax is the Tekne scientist so he probably returned to Golgotterath before the first Apocalypse.And Aurax certainly didn't die, skin spies were "invented " 300( or 200?) years before TDTCB.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 08:58:12 pm by Redeagl »
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Redeagl

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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 09:18:02 pm »
Conclusion: Aurax is mentioned as the Tekne scientist. Aurang have no experience with it.He couldn't have been out for long, else the First Apocalypse, Skin spies etc.. Couldn't have happened. In TTT the skin spy Möenghus interrogated, told him that they are only 20-30 years from the second resurrection of the No-God and the upcoming Second Apocalypse.All of this can't be possible without Aurax being in Golgotterath. If he was out, then it was just for a short time.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

Gorgorotterath

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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 11:27:31 am »
Where is written that Aurax gave the tusk to Angeshraël? I seem to recall that the Inchoroi gave the tusk to "the fathers of Men". This, if related in a mythical fashion, might refer to some forefather of Angeshraël. The concept of father of Men might have conflated different historical figures together. So, the continuity error (even if it exists) can be retconned  simply interpreting it as an obfuscation due to oral transmission and mythical interpretation.
Obviously if Bakker stated this in some interview/FAQ or so, then such a retcooning would be much more difficult.

I remember that is is stated somewhere that the Inchoroi were pissed off by the slowness of Men to react to the message of the Tusk...so it might be that it took various generations before it was really absorbed and metabolized as scripture, way too late for the immediate need of the Inchoroi.

Obviously all my memories on the subject might be utterly wrong.

P.S. After writing all this, I have actually found the relevant quote here, with no mention of either Aurax or Angeshraël, (https://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html):
Quote
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’

The Nonmen only rebuilt and reinforced the Gates after the first great migratory invasions generations later.


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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 11:51:21 am »
 I think it is unlikely that at the time of the Glamour being put over Golgotterath (the end of the C-I War) and the placing of the Barricades (perhaps soon after, perhaps at the same time, it's unclear) I think it is very unlikely that A&A were actually inside the Ark.  In fact, Akka relates to us that the Nonmen might have thought all the Inchoroi were dead, although the Glossary tells us they were simply, "hunting the last of the Inchoroi into the deep places of the earth."  Another spot liken the defeat as, "Inchoroi, whom they had driven to the four corners of the world in the days of Cu’jara Cinmoi."

In either case, we know that A&A survived and it is plausible that in the process of the Nonmen slogging through the Ark, A&A evacuate the place, realizing that the fight there was lost...for now and take refuge in Eänna.  I think either the Barricades are a ret-con, or simply the Nonmen thought all the Inchoroi were really dead or so broken, that simply hiding Golotterath would be an acceptable solution.  Only it wasn't, because A&A were still about, or so it certainly seems.  As such, Emilidis later came and put up the Barricades, to make sure they wouldn't get back in, even if they found it.

The circumstantial case seems plausible, someone was out there, crafting the Tusk, appearing to Angeshraël, distributing the Chorae, but more importantly formulating this plan.  I guess it is possible that this was done from inside the Ark, but that seems unlikely.  Also, it seems unlikely that it would be Cet’ingira who would do all that, since we know nothing of his knowing the Glamours, or in general being that crafty.

Cet’ingira remembered the Inverse Fire and the Ark.  And I think that probably, in no small part, A&A were apt to remind him, probably back in Eärwa, their work being done in Eänna with Siöl likely destroyed, along with the other mansions, apart from Ishterebinth.  Emilidis was probably dead then too by some means, opening up more of a possibility to open the Ark back up again.

Also plausible is that post-Breaking, A&A returned to find the Ark.  Thinking it was simply a glamour, they excavate, only to realize Emilidis wasn't so naive as to just hide the place, he sealed it.  There is a big time gap here, presumably from about 0-525, so what they were doing, I don't know, possibly exploring options on how to get in the Ark.  Possibly here is where they recruit Cet’ingira again, only to realize he isn't crafty enough, but maybe it is him who realizes who might be.  Men, if only they could be taught.

In any case, we do know that, interestingly enough, it was Cet’ingira who was chief among those who wanted to begin the Tutelage of men, saying: "Let me make a ministry of the wisdom we have purchased with our doom. For among them are souls as wise as our own.”  I think that fact that 252 years later it is he who shows the Mangaecca where the Ark is probably speaks to the duplicity in that statement.  Cet’ingira had already been corrupted by the Inverse Fire, he simply hadn't lost his mind completely.  Also plausible is that Aurang might have been whispering in his ear the whole time, hastening his fall into Erraticism.  The wisdom he was set to impart wasn't the wisdom of early Nonman culture, it was the wisdom of the Inverse Fire, that damnation was coming and unavoidable, but could be fought.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 11:53:48 am »
Where is written that Aurax gave the tusk to Angeshraël? I seem to recall that the Inchoroi gave the tusk to "the fathers of Men". This, if related in a mythical fashion, might refer to some forefather of Angeshraël. The concept of father of Men might have conflated different historical figures together. So, the continuity error (even if it exists) can be retconned  simply interpreting it as an obfuscation due to oral transmission and mythical interpretation.
Obviously if Bakker stated this in some interview/FAQ or so, then such a retcooning would be much more difficult.

I remember that is is stated somewhere that the Inchoroi were pissed off by the slowness of Men to react to the message of the Tusk...so it might be that it took various generations before it was really absorbed and metabolized as scripture, way too late for the immediate need of the Inchoroi.

Obviously all my memories on the subject might be utterly wrong.

P.S. After writing all this, I have actually found the relevant quote here, with no mention of either Aurax or Angeshraël, (https://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html):
Quote
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’

The Nonmen only rebuilt and reinforced the Gates after the first great migratory invasions generations later.

Good point, but Akka tells us that there were "centuries" between the defeat of the Inchoroi in the C-I Wars and the subsequent Breaking of the Gates.  That's a pretty broad term, could have been anywhere from 300-900 years really.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 12:03:31 pm »
Yeah but nowhere is  it stated that Angeshrael received the Tusk. We have no date for the Tusk being received.

Without that date you don't have a reference point. We just know it was "generations later" which is vague enough to be synonymous with "Centuries" later.


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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 12:09:25 pm »
Yeah but nowhere is  it stated that Angeshrael received the Tusk. We have no date for the Tusk being received.

Without that date you don't have a reference point. We just know it was "generations later" which is vague enough to be synonymous with "Centuries" later.

Right, I don't think the Tusk was given to him, but rather, he was the one chosen to proselytize it.

Oh and Aurang plainly tells us he was driven out of the Ark at the end of the C-I War:

Quote
Driven from Min-Uroikas. Scattered. Hunted. So far they had dwindled!
And then, from nowhere, a second age of glory. Who would have guessed that the cunning of Men could resurrect their aborted designs, that the vermin could restore his destiny?

After I raise a wall of circumstantial evidence, the answer was right there.  "But such a wall..."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 12:13:17 pm »
Didn't the Mangecca "awaken" the two surviving inchoroi when they entered the arc though?

Seems like some contradictory info, or faulty memory by me. You've went and checked though so i'll believe that over my memory lol

It's too close to release for me to worry about timelines (been burnt there too many times with books) or whether tekne nukes can melt nonmen mansions.


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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 12:22:53 pm »
Didn't the Mangecca "awaken" the two surviving inchoroi when they entered the arc though?

Seems like some contradictory info, or faulty memory by me. You've went and checked though so i'll believe that over my memory lol

It's too close to release for me to worry about timelines (been burnt there too many times with books) or whether tekne nukes can melt nonmen mansions.

I don't immediately recall them awakening anyone, but I'll try to dig into it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 03:23:13 pm »
It is stated in the books that after they broke the glamour and the barricades they found Aurax and Aurang hiding in the bowels of the Ark.

ETA: Maybe the False Sun. But it does say that somewhere.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2017, 03:29:00 pm »
It is stated in the books that after they broke the glamour and the barricades they found Aurax and Aurang hiding in the bowels of the Ark.

ETA: Maybe the False Sun. But it does say that somewhere.

Yeah, the line from "What Came Before" in all the books is, "The fools discovered and awakened the last two surviving Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, who had concealed themselves in the labyrinthine recesses of the Ark."

I'm not buying it though.  Sounds like Mandate/Sohonc propaganda.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 03:40:23 pm »
It is stated in the books that after they broke the glamour and the barricades they found Aurax and Aurang hiding in the bowels of the Ark.

ETA: Maybe the False Sun. But it does say that somewhere.

Yeah, the line from "What Came Before" in all the books is, "The fools discovered and awakened the last two surviving Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, who had concealed themselves in the labyrinthine recesses of the Ark."

I'm not buying it though.  Sounds like Mandate/Sohonc propaganda.

Very well. I think you've made a good case, and I agree that an Inchie was out and about Eanna.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2017, 04:21:27 pm »
Very well. I think you've made a good case, and I agree that an Inchie was out and about Eanna.

It's also something that puts the onus on the Nonmen of old for having missed two Inchoroi hiding in the Ark, rather than on the Sohonc for having missed two Inchoroi skulking around behind  their backs, aiding and abetting the Mangaecca.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2017, 04:25:21 pm »
Ah "what came before" where cnaiur is stated as dead.

I knew I had read awaken in that context somewhere though, however since it's in the what came before section it carries little weight.