Why did MoŽ really leave Ishušl?

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« on: May 16, 2017, 02:51:58 pm »
For a long time now, I've had this feeling that the story of why MoŽnghus left Ishušl simply didn't really add up.  Prima facie, it seems plausible that to keep DŻnyain society effectively isolated, outside influence must be avoided at any cost.  Compromised individuals must be eliminated, lest the whole endeavor necessarily fail.  However, some aspect of why MoŽnghus left don't really jive with that.

Let's start with what we're told:

Quote
ďThe DŻnyain have hidden from the world for two millennia, and they would remain hidden, if they could, for all eternity. Yet thirty-one years ago, while I was still but a child, we were discovered by a band of Sranc. The Sranc were easily destroyed, but as a precaution, my father was sent into the wilderness to ascertain the extent of our exposure. When he returned some months later, it was decided that he must be exiled. Heíd been contaminated, had become a threat to our mission. Three decades passed, and it was assumed heíd perished.Ē

So, previous to a close reading of this paragraph, I had the mistaken assumption that it was encountering the Sranc that lead to MoŽ leaving, but this is not the case at all.  That stands to reason, encountering Sranc would be litter different than encounting a pack of wolves, especially if one never bothered to learn Aghurzoi, the Sranc language.  I mean, it is plausible that even knowledge of Sranc would be something of an outside influence, but I don't believe they were unaware of Sranc, so their continued existence would not be much of a shock.

On that point, Kellhus doesn't question Leweth when he speaks of Sranc, only show unfamiliarity with their particulars when Leweth points out their particulars.  This, to me, speaks to Kellhus knowledge of Sranc in the intellectual sense, but unfamiliar with the practicalities and particulars of them.  That is something of an aside though.

So, going back to the above quote, MoŽnghus leaves Ishušl to investigate the Sranc's finding of them, so what would he presumably do?  Track them backwards, to see where they came from.  There are a few obvious options on what he would find would plausibly include:
More Sranc
More Sranc, but lead by Ursranc.
More Sranc, but lead by a Nonman.
A human settlement.
Human ruins.
Nonman ruins.

In the first two cases, there is little to suggest why MoŽnghus would need to be exiled.  Even if he learned Aghurzoi, what might a Sranc or Ursranc tell him that would lead him taint him?

If he met a Nonman, he could have learned of sorcery.

If he met a human, he could have learned of history.  The same for the ruins of the former KŻniŁri empire and so the lineage of the AnasŻrimbor.  Plausibly, something of the same for Nonman ruins.

None of this really seems all that tainting.  But wait, we once asked Bakker about this very topic.

Isolation from external causes is the key to the original Dunyain mission. Allowing Moenghus back in would have been tantamount to allowing every he had experienced back in.

My emphasis added.  My above analysis is presuming that it was something MoŽnghus learned that lead him to not be fit to be allowed back to Ishušl.  But cagey, cagey Bakker points out, it was what MoŽ experienced that left him unfit for return.

I asked Bakker, in that thread a follow up question:

I never doubted this.  However, I have, at times, doubted the wisdom of allowing a Dunyain to exist in the wild, from their perspective.

It's hard to imagine them not considering the risks in allowing someone with knowledge of Ishual's location to simply walk out.  Why didn't they force him into the Thousand-Thousand Halls, like the Pragma did when he polluted them in turn?  I've come up with some conspiracy theories on this, because it seems somewhat unfathomable that they didn't consider the risk in allowing him to leave.

They had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?

So, wait, I took this to mean that MoŽnghus was yet another AnasŻrimbor prodigy and so the Pragma felt no right to demand he kill himself.  I don't this is what he meant though.  It wouldn't make much sense to allow a prodigy to go on a seemingly suicidal mission to scout out Sranc anyway.

No, I think, again, Bakker is being cagey with his wording here.

MoŽnghus didn't leave Ishušl the first time as their better, he returned to Ishušl as their better.

What?  Why would tracking Sranc better MoŽnghus?

Because, just as Kellhus learned when he left Ishušl, MoŽnghus experienced domination.  He experienced that Sranc could be manipulated (as his latter appearance to Scylvendi in the "captivity" of Sranc shows).  He probably experienced that world-born men could be dominated as if children.  He returned to Ishušl knowing full well that he was more, the full power of the DŻnyain.  The Logos unleashed.

He had a taste of the power that the Logos offers.  Why give it up?  Rather, he chose to leave Ishušl.  This is also why he chose to head south.  He must have known that was where human civilization was.  He would go there and he would dominate it.  A DŻnyainic dynasty to lead and guide Men.  But he made the first major blunder with choosing the PsŻkhe and so the rest is history, as they say.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 05:14:56 pm »
Just really a nitpick here, but Moe didn't really choose the Psukhe. He had no other choice, really. When he had to scar his arms to cross the Steppe, he ended any chance of going to the Three-Seas. Kian was his only choice, tbh.
ďNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĎYursalkaí becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 05:36:24 pm »
Just really a nitpick here, but Moe didn't really choose the Psukhe. He had no other choice, really. When he had to scar his arms to cross the Steppe, he ended any chance of going to the Three-Seas. Kian was his only choice, tbh.

True, but his mistake was certainly to think that he could master the PsŻhke the same way he mastered everything else.

But that leads right into his later mistake of thinking that the Outside didn't really influence the Inside...
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2017, 01:58:09 am »
Apologies for going into left field - but this could be an opportunity for humor in the story - when he left, he was chased out of the North by some freak with faces on his cloak ... oh, never mind. At least I don't feel bad now that I couldn't "remember" why Moe left in the first place.

I agree, Bakker doesn't want to divulge. Either he's making a decision to not detail everything ( where does it stop if he answers your question if the reason Moe left is somewhat ( or completely ) unimportant ) or it's part of the TUC and feels it's a spoiler.
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2017, 11:38:55 am »
Apologies for going into left field - but this could be an opportunity for humor in the story - when he left, he was chased out of the North by some freak with faces on his cloak ... oh, never mind. At least I don't feel bad now that I couldn't "remember" why Moe left in the first place.

I agree, Bakker doesn't want to divulge. Either he's making a decision to not detail everything ( where does it stop if he answers your question if the reason Moe left is somewhat ( or completely ) unimportant ) or it's part of the TUC and feels it's a spoiler.

Bakker probably has ideas, but I doubt it is all that important in the grand scheme of things and so it's probably not fully fleshed out.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

locke

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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2017, 09:20:11 pm »
As I said on the other forum I'm inclined to think that moe just stood up from the probability trance and walked out of Ishual without a word or indication of motivation.

Why ? "When the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"

I think moe started experiencing the thought in Ishual and in response to its proddings he just left.

The total unpredictability of his action paralyzed the dunyain as they were completely unable to parse it and thus unable to react to try and stop him until it was too late and he was beyond their reach (they'd be terrified and or paralyzed once leaving Ishual anyway, so they would have a very short window to stop him before being overcome by experiencing a non sterile environment.

But I truly love this theory, that moe experienced domination and like kellhus he became addicted to domination

TaoHorror

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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 02:23:43 am »
As I said on the other forum I'm inclined to think that moe just stood up from the probability trance and walked out of Ishual without a word or indication of motivation.

Why ? "When the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"

I think moe started experiencing the thought in Ishual and in response to its proddings he just left.

The total unpredictability of his action paralyzed the dunyain as they were completely unable to parse it and thus unable to react to try and stop him until it was too late and he was beyond their reach (they'd be terrified and or paralyzed once leaving Ishual anyway, so they would have a very short window to stop him before being overcome by experiencing a non sterile environment.

But I truly love this theory, that moe experienced domination and like kellhus he became addicted to domination

I like your point, but what thought came to him? I concur, though, he left because he fucking felt like leaving - he's an adult, doesn't have to explain himself. Er, well, that's my response to strangers who question something irrelevant about what I'm doing, hee hee.

But not sure I concur with your conclusion they became "addicted" to domination. I will concede they probably like being "players" in mega moves in society ( i.e. pursuing leadership positions and dominating ), but there's more going on with those two. Initially, they were figuring out how to "survive" the children running the classroom ( can't have them stringing us up on the quick now, can we ... er, well, that did happen to one of them ... ); but, then they "encountered" ( not sure what word to use here ) the Thousand Fold Thought and concluded they had to do something about it ... neutralize the species extinction level threat to themselves and from others. It could be explained away that it's pure self preservation move ( The Consult are coming to kill us all, us includes Moe and Kellhus ), but more than the joy of domination, they seem to want to save humanity beyond their own skins and something more profound than not wanting to be alone if just about everybody else was done in.
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locke

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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2017, 04:05:16 pm »
The thousand fold thought

Frail

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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2017, 04:42:05 pm »
"The Sranc were easily destroyed, but as a precaution, my father was sent into the wilderness to ascertain the extent of our exposure."

You have your answer right there. He left to see if this trigger of events would lead to more exposure. In doing so he came upon some of the same revelations as Kellhus. Moenghus returned because that was his mission, and they could see the change the wilderness had brought upon him. There is the interesting dilemma of his exile, I feel in makes sense. This was probably the biggest event that happened to the Dunyain in a thousand years, if they killed him, they would have to explain this to everyone and I think choosing exile and continuing the previous mission the best option

locke

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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2017, 05:54:04 pm »
Still a bullshit story kellhus is lying or repeating a lie.

A culture that goes underground and suicides contamination has no concept of exile

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2017, 06:39:22 pm »
Still a bullshit story kellhus is lying or repeating a lie.

A culture that goes underground and suicides contamination has no concept of exile

I agree. Have always said as much, though I have had an outlandish take or two. It probably is much simpler, domination, as H put it would make a lot of sense.
ďNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĎYursalkaí becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2017, 11:38:10 pm »
The thousand fold thought

Don't think he had the information sequestered in Ishual to been able to "come up" with the TTT, but maybe ...
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2017, 11:51:32 pm »
The thousand fold thought

Don't think he had the information sequestered in Ishual to been able to "come up" with the TTT, but maybe ...

TaoHORROR, say he met the Scranc, learned of their master and such. Sorcery and so on. Maybe a Nonman (Mek, anyone?), explains bit about the Consult and such.

Anyway, if you go with H's theory that the Thought stands Outside of time, then really he need to know nothing about this. Whoever is in the vision (H thinks Kellhus and that's very reasonable, I do hold out hope that Moe still controls the Thought, purely a fancy of mine), is the one controlling the Thought sending message about what comes after determines what comes before. "He was quite unprepared for th thought when it came to him". This means he didn't plan the thought, the thought was giving to him precisely as Kellhus receives his vision. It would certainly be enough for him to just get up and walk out of Ishual. The thought seems to be outside the influence of men, Dunyain or otherwise. I actually love the idea of being how Moe decided to leave Ishual.
ďNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĎYursalkaí becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2017, 10:31:35 am »
Or since the whole thing is a story, which required a son to be searching for their father, the father had to leave and not much time was spent inoculating the reason from any and all interpretations of it by the public.

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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 10:38:53 am »
Anyway, if you go with H's theory that the Thought stands Outside of time, then really he need to know nothing about this. Whoever is in the vision (H thinks Kellhus and that's very reasonable, I do hold out hope that Moe still controls the Thought, purely a fancy of mine), is the one controlling the Thought sending message about what comes after determines what comes before. "He was quite unprepared for th thought when it came to him". This means he didn't plan the thought, the thought was giving to him precisely as Kellhus receives his vision. It would certainly be enough for him to just get up and walk out of Ishual. The thought seems to be outside the influence of men, Dunyain or otherwise. I actually love the idea of being how Moe decided to leave Ishual.

While I don't really love my own theory, it's the one that makes the most sense to me, so I favor it.

The Thousandfold Thought coming to Moe and spurring him to leave is plausible and possibly is a clean answer to why he left in the first place.  That easily sets the stage for him looking to return and the Pragma denying him, realizing that he would be far too dangerous back in Ishual, having realized, one, he really is clearly their better and he now knows it, and two, that he can dominate them, probably with little difficulty.

It is even plausible that the Thought had Moe essentially lied to the Pragma about why he was leaving.  So, there could well have been Sranc and the Pragma could have thought that Moe really was leaving to track them, when something else was really driving him.  The key is that he attempted to return and was denied, based off what he experienced out in the world.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira