Why did MoŽ really leave Ishušl?

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Frail

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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2017, 04:40:20 pm »
Moenghus came up with The Thousandfold Thought probably the same day he captured a Skin Spy, this is what he told Kellhus when they met. He realized quite early he would not be able fullfill the task, only pave the way.

H

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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 05:14:13 pm »
Moenghus came up with The Thousandfold Thought probably the same day he captured a Skin Spy, this is what he told Kellhus when they met. He realized quite early he would not be able fullfill the task, only pave the way.

That was my understanding of it too, but rereading it I think it is less clear that is the case.

Not that it is at all clear it isn't the case.  I don't think we have textual evidence of either, so it's open to interpretation.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 02:21:22 pm »
As I said on the other forum I'm inclined to think that moe just stood up from the probability trance and walked out of Ishual without a word or indication of motivation.

Why ? "When the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"

I think moe started experiencing the thought in Ishual and in response to its proddings he just left.

The total unpredictability of his action paralyzed the dunyain as they were completely unable to parse it and thus unable to react to try and stop him until it was too late and he was beyond their reach (they'd be terrified and or paralyzed once leaving Ishual anyway, so they would have a very short window to stop him before being overcome by experiencing a non sterile environment.

But I truly love this theory, that moe experienced domination and like kellhus he became addicted to domination

I think this fits only if you assume that TTT is something that exists largely outside of the dunyain, along the lines of H's theories. The whole point of TTT is that it couldn't be developed in isolation, which is why all the dunyain don't see it / know of it. Else, you have to start making a lot of assumptions that there are different echelons of the dunyain hierarchy that we don't know about, and that they are hiding information from the lower tiers, etc. etc.

The further along we get without getting more info about the Dunyain, the less I am inclined to find these types of things viable. Its not much of a story/mystery if the majority of the solution relies on unknown information.

For now, excepting that it requires TTT to be something entirely different than what I think it is, its a pretty good explination. Moe going all Leroy Jenkins out of Ishual would be extremely jarring to the dunayin, affording him plenty of time to get away unscathed.
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Walter

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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 03:32:07 pm »
I tend to agree with the 'there is less here than we think' school of thought.  Like, I think we can take the books at face value.

Moe was sent out after the Sranc contamination, told to deal with stuff, then kill himself.

He ends up with the Ceshaurim, story continues as we know from there.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2017, 04:08:23 pm »
Yeah, but, but, but ... overthinking the story is a lot of fun! The strongest dynamic that makes this forum fly.

Leroy Jenkins reference is so dope! Now THAT is Duynain!
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H

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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 04:23:23 pm »
I tend to agree with the 'there is less here than we think' school of thought.  Like, I think we can take the books at face value.

Moe was sent out after the Sranc contamination, told to deal with stuff, then kill himself.

He ends up with the Ceshaurim, story continues as we know from there.

Well, as I point out in my opening post, what Bakker said kind of goes against that.

I don't think my synthesis of what is in the books with what Bakker said is all that outlandish though.  Whatever reason he had to leave in the first place, he did return and in doing so, was denied stay.  The point is that is wasn't just simple exile, really.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Somnambulist

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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 05:41:39 pm »
Just throwing this out there:  the Dunyain are not above murder.  They kill defectives, or send them to the unmasking room, or whatever else.  If Moe came back to them with knowledge or experience enough to warrant worry within the general Dunyain ranks, why not just kill him?  They are many, he is one.  Shouldn't be a problem, right?  This raises two possibilities, in my mind.

1) The Dunyain truly believed themselves to be the last remaining vestige of humanity in the world, secluded as they were.  So, in effect, they believed they were killing him by exiling him.  How long could he survive?  There's nothing out there, no other people, no women to procreate with, no way for himself, alone, to assault Ishual to 'pollute' them further.  He had become a danger to them, specifically, because of the knowledge he had gained while outside Ishual.  They weren't afraid he'd tell anyone about them, because they truly believed there was no one else.  His perspective was the danger.  Maybe he 'broke' like Kellhus did when he left Ishual.

or

2) Moenghus had become powerful in a way the Dunyain did not understand.  Meaning either he had learned something that could overcome multiple Dunyain, or he made them believe he had learned something that could overcome multiple Dunyain.  Whatever the case, the result would have been the same: exile rather than risk further losses/corruption/whatever.  Which then leads to (1) above anyway.  Fine, exile him, he'll die anyway.

I don't really think he learned sorcery or had some tekne or some other bullshit like (2) might imply.  I lean heavily toward the first option.  He'd been corrupted to the point where the other Dunyain felt his presence could no longer be tolerated for fear of derailing their mission.  Simple as that.  The Shortest Path is exile: he's gone and no-one had to die to try to subdue or kill him outright.  Problem solved.

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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2017, 06:06:38 pm »
Going back to what Bakker said:

Quote
They had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?

Possibly they presumed he would kill himself.  I mean, they did and he, being their better, would too right?

Except what he learned was that exile was not death.  He learned he could survive, even thrive out there.  So he left instead.  The key, to go back to my first post, is that what he experienced outside Ishušl is the key, not really any specific knowledge.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2017, 06:19:32 pm »
A direct confrontation might lead to injury or death of one or more Dunyain. Throwing rocks or arrows at him form the wall wouldn't likely have much effect. Doesn't seem too unreasonable that risking the life of any more Dunyain was outweighed by an option that didn't risk any.

Clearly, they made an error. I'm not suggesting they were right. Whatever they thought would stop him from corrupting them further clearly didn't. The fallibility of Dunyain decision making is central to the story, unlike the mysterious inner workings of their secret cult, making this kind of explanation far more satisfying to me.
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 06:23:18 pm »
A direct confrontation might lead to injury or death of one or more Dunyain. Throwing rocks or arrows at him form the wall wouldn't likely have much effect. Doesn't seem too unreasonable that risking the life of any more Dunyain was outweighed by an option that didn't risk any.

Clearly, they made an error. I'm not suggesting they were right. Whatever they thought would stop him from corrupting them further clearly didn't. The fallibility of Dunyain decision making is central to the story, unlike the mysterious inner workings of their secret cult, making this kind of explanation far more satisfying to me.

Right.  I mean, the Dunyain default reaction was to kill yourself.  If their premise is correct, then that is the correct line of action.  They must have assumed that Moe, "being their better" would take the correct line of action, which, again, is killing one's self.

Except that Moe knew the premise was flawed and so he didn't kill himself.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2017, 07:39:00 pm »
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.

Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".
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« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2017, 11:30:27 am »
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.

Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".

Very much a case of "unknown unknowns."

Then again, Moe himself falls into the same trap in the end though, supposing that the world was closed despite evidence that it was not.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2017, 12:00:47 pm »
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.

Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".

Very much a case of "unknown unknowns."

Then again, Moe himself falls into the same trap in the end though, supposing that the world was closed despite evidence that it was not.

Exactly my point. We have a lot of instances of Dunyain making mistakes that lead to catastrophic results. Moe being exiled, blinding himself, calling for Kellhus. Kellhus and his ridiculous idiocy early on in the woods. Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet. The list goes on, and usually ends in death swirling down:P .
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2017, 12:12:45 pm »
Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.

Even Maithanet walking into that room, when he should have known full well he was on heavily conditioned ground.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2017, 12:19:35 pm »
Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.

Even Maithanet walking into that room, when he should have known full well he was on heavily conditioned ground.
Huh, a Dunyain walking into heavily conditioned ground assured of victory. Lol, what does TUC have in store for us.
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