Why did MoŽ really leave Ishušl?

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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2017, 12:21:47 pm »
Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.

Even Maithanet walking into that room, when he should have known full well he was on heavily conditioned ground.
Huh, a Dunyain walking into heavily conditioned ground assured of victory. Lol, what does TUC have in store for us.

Well, technically only half Dunyain, but yeah.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Hiro

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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2017, 01:19:13 pm »
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.

Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".

Very much a case of "unknown unknowns."

Then again, Moe himself falls into the same trap in the end though, supposing that the world was closed despite evidence that it was not.

Exactly my point. We have a lot of instances of Dunyain making mistakes that lead to catastrophic results. Moe being exiled, blinding himself, calling for Kellhus. Kellhus and his ridiculous idiocy early on in the woods. Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet. The list goes on, and usually ends in death swirling down:P .

This does demonstrate the limits of control and the omnipotence of ignorance that shrouds everything.
Mystery denotes darkness

Jackehehe

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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 10:04:09 pm »
Spoiler for TUC:

(click to show/hide)

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« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2017, 02:46:06 am »
It hasn't been stated but in the prologue of TPN do the Dunyain who first find ishual not mention sranc? Should the Dunyain during Moe's time not be aware of that the sranc at least exist?

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2017, 12:06:10 pm »
It hasn't been stated but in the prologue of TPN do the Dunyain who first find ishual not mention sranc? Should the Dunyain during Moe's time not be aware of that the sranc at least exist?
They knew about sranc, certainly. They were allegedly fleeing the apocalypse so they knew of sranc, the Consult, Nonmen, Inchoroi, Sorcery, etc. etc.

What they knew, and what information they allowed to be passed down through the ages, are two separate things entirely. They scrubbed all traces of history and magic from the halls of Ishual, and so too, it would seem, all information regarding the apocalyse/NG/Consult/etc.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2017, 12:31:33 pm »
They knew about sranc, certainly. They were allegedly fleeing the apocalypse so they knew of sranc, the Consult, Nonmen, Inchoroi, Sorcery, etc. etc.

What they knew, and what information they allowed to be passed down through the ages, are two separate things entirely. They scrubbed all traces of history and magic from the halls of Ishual, and so too, it would seem, all information regarding the apocalyse/NG/Consult/etc.

I guess the question is really how much contact did they inevitably have via chance bands happening upon them?  And did they all kill themselves as a result?  I guess if few enough had a chance to accidentally have outside contact, that is plausible.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2017, 01:27:52 pm »
I guess the question is really how much contact did they inevitably have via chance bands happening upon them?  And did they all kill themselves as a result?  I guess if few enough had a chance to accidentally have outside contact, that is plausible.

Yeah that's a separate question entirely.
Just had this thought - from what we have seen, and know, sranc really need to live in more temperate areas that support plentiful insects for eating as that is their major food source - ie The Mop. Further north and into the mountains, less bugs, so less sranc.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2017, 02:14:17 pm »
Yeah that's a separate question entirely.
Just had this thought - from what we have seen, and know, sranc really need to live in more temperate areas that support plentiful insects for eating as that is their major food source - ie The Mop. Further north and into the mountains, less bugs, so less sranc.

Indeed, it would probably be unlikely for them to be in the area in general.  Possibly only driven there on the off chance of another band driving them there through petty infighting, lack of food elsewhere, or simply just being dumb and getting lost.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2017, 08:44:31 pm »
Going back to what Bakker said:

Quote
They had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?

Possibly they presumed he would kill himself.  I mean, they did and he, being their better, would too right?

Except what he learned was that exile was not death.  He learned he could survive, even thrive out there.  So he left instead.  The key, to go back to my first post, is that what he experienced outside Ishušl is the key, not really any specific knowledge.

My brain got fried somewhere along the typing of the post below so logic might be a bit over the place, but I'll try anyway  :o
I'm going to quote this one and mention that I haven't read TUC yet and have not read Jackehehe's TUC spoiler either.

I refer to the chapter about the story of Korringhus's loss of innocence upon starting to kill Shriekers and Singers in TGO:
After an upbringing in a closed environment, such as a monastery, contact with the outside world will give you new insights.
Pushing forward along an interpretation I had earlier: The Dunyain Mind is bred and brought up to experience only Reason (aka the Logos) to the point of blunting all sense of emotions: There is no love or hate, nothing. They only learn how to recognize these in others during their training, and they can probably recognize them in the defectives, who are definitely Conditioned Ground.

MoŽnghus then encounters Sranc, which are most definitely Unconditioned Ground, which is important: He starts killing them Mindlessly, as they'll probably have attacked him on sight/ smell. His training in the recognition of emotions leads him to find out how Sranc emotions work (same as Korringhus), as there is no "cause" for their emotions, and therefore to conclude that  Effect does not necessarily imply Cause (and that Effect can determine Cause), totally opposing Dunyain logic. Explaining this as TTT starting to dawn upon him, is not unreasonable. Also, we received an explanation somewhere either in TJE or TWL that killing eventually has a numbing effect on souls: This is confirmed by Korringhus's story.

This understanding of emotions (combined with the killing) leads to MoŽnghus being able to reason with additional Probabilities, something the Elders cannot possibly conceive and therefore puts them at his mercy, which in turn leads to him going into exile. I agree that his exile must have been a litteral "going into exile", as opposed to "being forced into exile".

For Korringhus, as I interpret it, the above (assisted by Mimara's Judging Eye) eventually leads to understanding why he Mindlessly saved "the Boy" from the nursery by finally understanding what "The Interval Between Them" was and leading him to his Zero-God theory.
Note that the "Mindlessly" in the previous passages is a key requirement for the Enlightenment of MoŽnghus, Kellhus and Korringhus, as this opens the Mind for other influences. This implies acting without Cause, and therefore an Effect without Cause. The fun part of that, is that starting TGO, we also see the Men of the Ordeal degenerating little by little, likely because of the Meat combined with the dehumanization of crimes, into minds revolving around "Actions without Cause".

I think therefore that the whole chapter where Korringhus recounts what happened up to and including meeting Achamian and Mimara, is in my opinion a direct reference to what MoŽnghus and Kellhus experienced respectively 50 and 20 years earlier. We know from Kellhus that he received his insight in Caraskand. For MoŽnghus, the above does not appear unlikely to me.

As to MoŽnghus's choice for the PsukhÍ may have been an accident, but it can also have been a conscious choice. Seeing the power with which he wielded other people's emotions, it's not far-fetched to expect greater things from Cishaurim magic. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew more about the Psukhe than we do... Face it, we don't know that much, and I wouldn't be surprised if TUC gives us more information on why the Cishaurim (bar Meppa) needed to be hunted to extinction.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...